WTF?
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
I'm afraid you are preaching to the choir on this one. And we do have a big choir. For years its been like this and it isn't going to change one bit until you new guys do something about it. You are the only ones that can do something about it because I dont think any guy that is at AC or WJ is going to push to help out the working conditions of the up and comer. It sounds bad to say that but the guys at AC I am sure have their own fish to fry since Milton is giving them a work over. I have come to the conclusion that nothing is ever going to change in this industry for the low timers. I dont think there is anough organization and/or commitment to change things. Although I do agree things should be changed.
Sinkrate, your rant is totally justified and I'm sure a lot of other pilots feel the same way. It's just that the rose-colored glasses brigade are usually the first ones to reply to a post like yours. I had similar feelings to you and you can read about my experience at http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... t=ludacris
Like any career, there's positives and negatives about aviation and you won't know if the positives out-weigh the negatives until you try it. Sure research would have helped you make a better informed decision, but you really won't know if it's for you until you've actually done it as a job and not only flying whenever you want to for fun or for training.
Just like you, I made more money before I started aviation and I made more money as soon as I got out. Three years later do I miss the flying or regret my decision to get out - sure I miss it sometimes, but being home everynight, never working a 14 hr day again, etc. is more important to me now than breaking through the clouds or telling girls I'm a pilot. I got a huge wake-up call when I started my first flying job and so did lots of others I worked with too. I couldn't believe it when some people gave up flying after only a few months. A few even gave it up before they got called up from working the ramp because of what they saw. So you're definitely not alone if you want to get out.
On the other hand, almost everyone I'm still in touch with from aviation has made it to a major airline and is flying jets now and they love their lives - although lots of the same original complaints are still there. If you stick with it long enough the big iron will come, only you can decide how much you're willing to sacrifice to get there...
Like any career, there's positives and negatives about aviation and you won't know if the positives out-weigh the negatives until you try it. Sure research would have helped you make a better informed decision, but you really won't know if it's for you until you've actually done it as a job and not only flying whenever you want to for fun or for training.
Just like you, I made more money before I started aviation and I made more money as soon as I got out. Three years later do I miss the flying or regret my decision to get out - sure I miss it sometimes, but being home everynight, never working a 14 hr day again, etc. is more important to me now than breaking through the clouds or telling girls I'm a pilot. I got a huge wake-up call when I started my first flying job and so did lots of others I worked with too. I couldn't believe it when some people gave up flying after only a few months. A few even gave it up before they got called up from working the ramp because of what they saw. So you're definitely not alone if you want to get out.
On the other hand, almost everyone I'm still in touch with from aviation has made it to a major airline and is flying jets now and they love their lives - although lots of the same original complaints are still there. If you stick with it long enough the big iron will come, only you can decide how much you're willing to sacrifice to get there...
I have friends that work in the trades and office jobs. They are making 6 figures or close to it. They have a nice place and lots of toys. They also work 60-80 hour weeks slaving thier asses off hating what they do. They're usualy too tired to even enjoy thier weekends and the toys that they own. I WORK 60-80 HOURS A MONTH. (If you can consider what I do work) I got my commercial licence 7 years ago and yes I'm only making half of what they make and yes it may be another 5 years or so until I get anywhere near 6 figures...BUT there is no better job for a lazy, talentless guy like myself. (j/k about the talentless thing, I can juggle like a mad-man) Ok I've struggled with bills at times over the last 7 years and sure I don't have a lot of big fancy toys YET, but I'm still in my 20's I've got all the time in the world to "settle down" I DON"T WANT TO COME HOME AT 6PM EVERY NIGHT, KISS MY WIFE, HAVE DINNER, GO TO BED, WAKE UP, GO TO WORK, HOME AT 6PM, KISS MY...well you get the point. I also don't want to be in a sweltering shop, or site for 12 hours a day in July. My point is that I don't mind living like a college student for a few years after college if it meens that I can do what I truly enjoy.
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angry inch
- Rank 7
- Posts: 518
- Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:18 pm
- Location: the wet coast
As someone pointed out earlier, many pilots use companies as stepping stones to "THE BIG TIME", whether that's A/C, WJ, or whomever. I certainly am not supporting low wages, however, how are companies supposed to deal with the huge costs associated with the high turnover rates of late??
I know of a few pilots, who, in the last year, have been PPC'd on more than one aircraft at one company... no training bonds or anything like that... only to jump ship weeks later for A/C 'cuz they got "The Call".
I think training bonds suck, and there are still a bunch of great companies out there who don't make their pilots sign one for a PPC. What are the options for these companies to make a go of it?? Rising operating costs are obviously not making the situation any better..
Perhaps some kind of term contract like a 2yr commitment, or something?? I dunno...
There will always be operators who pay shitty wages for whatever reason,
but I wonder how some of the "good" ones can even realistically continue to compete with the kind of turnover we're seeing these days.
I know of a few pilots, who, in the last year, have been PPC'd on more than one aircraft at one company... no training bonds or anything like that... only to jump ship weeks later for A/C 'cuz they got "The Call".
I think training bonds suck, and there are still a bunch of great companies out there who don't make their pilots sign one for a PPC. What are the options for these companies to make a go of it?? Rising operating costs are obviously not making the situation any better..
Perhaps some kind of term contract like a 2yr commitment, or something?? I dunno...
There will always be operators who pay shitty wages for whatever reason,
but I wonder how some of the "good" ones can even realistically continue to compete with the kind of turnover we're seeing these days.
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Highflyinpilot
- Rank 8
- Posts: 865
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:30 am
- Location: Holy Hell, is that what you look like in the morning
Hey NavCan is always hiring. Most pilots don't like us but you get your aviation fix and make some decent money too. You can sit in your warm tower and watch the lurkers loading the planes with your hot coffee while they are outside in -50. Not to mention after you pay off your loans with your good salary you can go out buy a plane or a share and fly it wherever you like instead of where they tell you!
FSS: puting the Service back in Flight Services....
Now yes the younger generation AKA me are the only ones that can change the working conditions and wages. However there is only so much we can do. I'm not going to go without a job but I will (and did) hold out for the highest bidder, anyone who bid less I simply told them that, saw if they would counter offer, if not I said thank you for your time and left the interview. Change is slow, but yes younger pilots can do something about it but within reason.
Good stuff GGGQ. The only problem is the industry needs more people like you and then changes will happen. But there are so many newbies that think that if they dont hurry up and get the hours they will miss out on AC and in the process they will do it for free. Keep in mind what they are essentially saying about you and your worth when they accept these jobs for free. Pretty insulting huh?
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hahaha
hahaha
If it Flies, Floats or F#$@'s, its cheaper to rent.
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TheEvilTwin
- Rank 1
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 9:02 am
60-80 a monthF,D and H wrote: I WORK 60-80 HOURS A MONTH. (If you can consider what I do work)
Are we talking flight hours or duty hours here?? Seems pretty low for duty hours on a 12 hour day you work 5-6 days a month? I wouldn't be complaining either if I had a schedule like that...-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
From what I gather he doesen't work period.
looks like he is to lazy to want to work..BUT there is no better job for a lazy, talentless guy like myself.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
The problem is you seldom find people standing outside a fence watching a fork lift driver working and longing to be one.
Personally, I love to fly and that is why I wouldn't want to do it for a living.
Anyway, hang in there sink, your time will come. All careers have their hoops to jump through.
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invertedattitude
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2353
- Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:12 pm
I spent $45,000 on my flight training, then screwed off to become an Air traffic controller.
Now I fly for pleasure not for pain, and while there are times I still think I'd like to be a commercial pilot, I realize I make great money, I'm home every night, and I live in a civilized part of the country.
Not knocking what you guys do at all, if I hadn't gotten into ATC, I'd likely be in tundra country begging for peanuts, and looking back I wouldn't change my decision.
The reason for my post? To prove exactly what everyone else has said, the industry is rediculous for a young person to get into, and while I guess I'm sort of a "quitter" for not sticking with it, I don't regret it.
One thing all young pilots can be thankful, is that there's no debters jail
Now I fly for pleasure not for pain, and while there are times I still think I'd like to be a commercial pilot, I realize I make great money, I'm home every night, and I live in a civilized part of the country.
Not knocking what you guys do at all, if I hadn't gotten into ATC, I'd likely be in tundra country begging for peanuts, and looking back I wouldn't change my decision.
The reason for my post? To prove exactly what everyone else has said, the industry is rediculous for a young person to get into, and while I guess I'm sort of a "quitter" for not sticking with it, I don't regret it.
One thing all young pilots can be thankful, is that there's no debters jail
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Liquid Charlie
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1461
- Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:40 am
- Location: YXL
- Contact:
I guess this would likely be better as a new thread but I have to ask -- what would a young pilot think he is worth for that first job. There is no doubt that to get those licenses it's expensive in this day and age.
My era paid nowhere near that and in fact I think my private license cost me less than $100 once I got my $100 rebate back form the government -- my first job was $300 a month and after 5 years I was making close to $1000/month -- now that was the late 60's early 70's and it was also the best time of my life -- having said that -- none of us were carrying the enormous debit load like today -- we were just worried about the price of Rum and Beer -- Red lake is still recovering --
-- so I put it out there again -- what should a starting wage be -- applying inflation and such -- is 5 times the wage back then reasonable -- that would make it $1500/month and after 5 years close to 60K -- Back in the 70"s the mystical Arctic driver could make 60K for 6 months work -- we thought that was insane money but you also had to realize they were doing between 2 and 3 hundred hours a month flight time -- indeed times have changed -- I think when the dust settles the industry for the most part in north america maxes out shy of the 200K mark and that's after many years and a few contracts. Is that what the flying schools are telling people ?????
My era paid nowhere near that and in fact I think my private license cost me less than $100 once I got my $100 rebate back form the government -- my first job was $300 a month and after 5 years I was making close to $1000/month -- now that was the late 60's early 70's and it was also the best time of my life -- having said that -- none of us were carrying the enormous debit load like today -- we were just worried about the price of Rum and Beer -- Red lake is still recovering --
-- so I put it out there again -- what should a starting wage be -- applying inflation and such -- is 5 times the wage back then reasonable -- that would make it $1500/month and after 5 years close to 60K -- Back in the 70"s the mystical Arctic driver could make 60K for 6 months work -- we thought that was insane money but you also had to realize they were doing between 2 and 3 hundred hours a month flight time -- indeed times have changed -- I think when the dust settles the industry for the most part in north america maxes out shy of the 200K mark and that's after many years and a few contracts. Is that what the flying schools are telling people ?????Black Air has no Lift - Extra Fuel has no Weight
ACTPA
ACTPA
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futboler14
- Rank 3
- Posts: 164
- Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:34 pm
- Location: northish
trade you staight-up for a 4 door/nissan sentra spec-v/ dvd, mp3 player and subsI have a VW Rabbit/Golf 4 dr/sunroof/CD stereo for sale for $1295 in Sidney, complete with lots of new bits.
I'm growing out of that crap and just need a car good on gas like a cavy or sunfire
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flying4dollars
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1416
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:56 am
snaproll20 wrote:er..................hmmm................
sounds a bit like you walked into a casino cold turkey, bet $50,000 on a game you didn't know how to play.
sums it up right there...Cat Driver wrote:The problem is you seldom find people standing outside a fence watching a fork lift driver working and longing to be one.
solution? sure...suck it up, get your time in here, then GTFO...Europe, Middle East and Asia pay the way pilots should be paid..
on another note, there are some people in aviation who have such a hard on for flying, that they'll do whatever the industry tells them, and some that dont. personally, id much rather make 28,500 a year flying a navajo right seat than 60,000 to start at the rigs. Its what makes you happy. For me, nothing else but flying does, and a lot of operators take advantage of that.
welcome to Canadian Aviation
The job situation for pilots has never been better than it is now. And I suggest you all bask in its glory while it lasts because this bubble is gonna burst in a few years and when it does we will be back to the real rough times again and then you will really know what it's like to prostitute yourself for a flying job.
