Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

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WHIPPER
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by WHIPPER »

desksgo wrote:
Czech Aviation Investigator Dominica Pavell has already cited a cockpit disturbance as playing a major causal factor in the accident. "CVR information reveals an outspoken rabbit shouting commands to the crew up to 10 minutes prior to this occurrence"
Image
First off, it is really sad to see loss of life while people are doing things that they shouldn't be doing. My sincerest condolences to the families of these pilots.

That being said, I have never laughed so hard over an avcanada post. My chest hurts after close to ten minutes of uncontrollable laughter. Well done desksgo...
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by blockheater »

Strega wrote:Mucktuk,,

Can you explain to me how a citation crashed doing a simple excercise such as a roll?
I didn't realize Cessna had an aerobatics section in their Operators Manual for the Citation.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by looproll »

something tells me that attempting aerobatics as your near the coffin corner is not a good idea
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by MichaelP »

As an aerobatics instructor the barrel roll is one of the last manoeuvres I teach a newbie aerobatic pilot.
It is a manoeuvre that takes coordination and feel, lots of 'feel'.
Done properly and there's little more stress on the airframe than a steep turn and in a clean aeroplane even less.
I did a 1.6 G entry to a barrel roll in a CAP 10, this is a clean aeroplane, the Cessna 152 requires 2.25 G on entry.

But now here's the point for debate:

I don't like it that many airline pilots stop flying little aeroplanes when they get the real job.
I may be wrong, but I get he impression that a pilot who can hand fly a little aeroplane is a better person to have at the controls of a big aeroplane when things go wrong. Does anyone agree with this?

But, on the other hand, the enthusiastic 'airline' pilot who flies his little aeroplane might be tempted to do something stupid in the big aeroplane.

Me, I have barrel rolled a lot of aeroplanes, but I would never barrel roll something like a Cessna 172! It's not rigid enough.
I have also seen the results of poor control. Done wrong the barrel roll can lead you into the worst spiral dive situation you can imagine with overstress and smacking the ground as real possibilities.
I have spun off the top of a barrel roll when my control input was a little too positive for that type!

As for 'silly buggers', there's the famous 707 barrel, the Vulcan bomber, and Concorde of course, though I suspect Concorde did barrelled-corkscrew rolls.
The Jetstream 31 barrel rolled at air displays!

I seem to remember a Boeing 727 in the US getting a barrel roll wrong... They lost the flaps and the gear doors as they recovered from this 'upset'.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Sulako »

After tangling with A-340 wake turbulence a few years ago in our 550, I now try to do a few barrel rolls in the sim on each recurrent. I wanted to know that I at least have a chance at recovery if I get flipped over on final by a 767's vortices etc.

Of course that's not counting the barrel rolls I routinely do when screwing up a V1 cut... ;)
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by xsbank »

There is a huge debate going on in Europe right now about diminished pilot hand-flying skills. If you don't do any hand-flying from month to month, you don't get very good at it. After the loss of Air France in the South Atlantic, some operators have been giving their crews 4 hr. sim sessions with no autopilot/autothrottles and some instrument failures like ASI failures and getting them to hand-fly the entire time. EASA requires a hand-flown ILS with no automation, but only one on the LST.

This a/c loss is as stupid and pointless as the 2 morons killed in that RJ a year or two ago, or those two cowboys in the King Air near Pemberton. If you're going to do something stupid today, think what your loss will mean for your family and how they will explain what happened to you at your funeral - then, if you are still seriously going to commit stupidity, quit your job instead and go drive a taxi.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Last edited by xsbank on Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Rockie »

Strega wrote:JJJ

My point is most guys that fly the heavy iron, have the stick and rudder skills of 50 hour PPL when it comes to upset recovery etc....
Strega, could you please tell us the background you have in 705 training. A sweeping comment like that must surely come from extensive first hand experience.
MichaelP wrote:I may be wrong, but I get he impression that a pilot who can hand fly a little aeroplane is a better person to have at the controls of a big aeroplane when things go wrong. Does anyone agree with this?
I would rather have a pilot that knows how to hand fly a big airplane, but your point is a valid one. Basic aircraft handling (never mind barrel rolls) is something that definitely gets short shrift once a pilot reaches an airline job. It takes dedicated and deliberate effort to keep those skills polished. Every SOP I've ever read permits and encourages it under the proper circumstances so there really is no excuse.

But hand flying skills and stupidity have nothing to do with one another. I think in this 550 accident it was stupidity that killed them, not a lack of flying skill.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by robbreid »

Image
Anyone recall C-GXFZ Air Niagra accident at Orillia? Sept 26/84.

The investigation wasn't conclusive, wondering if anyone remembers this accident,
and has any thoughts. I knew the crew from my days at Innotech, Air Niagra was
based in the old Leavens Hangar - that was a sad day.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by BTD »

I seem to remember a Boeing 727 in the US getting a barrel roll wrong... They lost the flaps and the gear doors as they recovered from this 'upset'.
http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-fu ... R81-08.pdf

They weren't attempting a barrel roll but they did end up rolling it a few times during recovery. Although the report states the flight crew were doing things they shouldn't.
Probable Cause

The Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the Isolation of the No. 7 leading edge slat in the fully or partially extended position after an extension of the Nos. 2, 3, 6, and 7 leading edge slats and the subsequent retraction of the
Nos. 2, 3, and 6 slats, and the captain's untimely flight control inputs,to counter the roll
resulting from the slat asymmetry. Contributing to the cause was a preexisting
misalignment of the No. 7 slat which, when combined with the cruise condition airloads,
precluded retraction of that slat. After eliminating all probable individual or combined
mechanical failures or malfunctions which could lead to slat extension, the Safety Board determined that the extension of the slats was the result of the flightcrew's manipulation
of the flap/slat controls. Contributing to the captain's untimely use of the flight controls
determined that the extension of the slats was the result of the flightcrew's manipulation
was distraction due probably to his efforts to rectify the source of the control problem.
4.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Hedley »

Anyone who doesn't know the difference between barrel
roll and an aileron (aka ballistic) roll shouldn't fly aerobatics.

A barrel roll is really a spiralled loop and as such is going
to involve some G (eg +4G), like any other vertical aerobatic
maneuver.

An aileron (aka ballistic) roll is a far gentler aerobatic
maneuver, involving max +2G in the pitch up in the
entry, and +2G in the pull at the exit. While inverted
the G is light and slightly positive. Properly flown,
the maximum G experienced is +2G and the minimum
is around +0.5G. This is much less than would be
experienced in a barrel roll.

Tex Johnston did an AILERON roll in the 367-80 at
the Seattle Hydroplane races, from 1500 AGL. Twice.
He surely did not barrel roll it.

Even though people here might get upset about it,
it is a sad state of affairs that:

1) pilots don't know the difference between an
aileron roll and a barrel roll

2) so-called professional pilots do not have the
skill to perform even a simple roll.

I can teach anyone to aileron roll any aircraft in
2 minutes. It's that easy and simple. How people
screw it up and manage to kill themselves is an
ongoing mystery to me. Sort of like killing yourself
with a can opener. I suppose you could, but I
don't know why.

Properly flown, an aileron roll does NOT impose
any unusual stresses on an aircraft. When you
are upside down, the G is still slightly positive -
the aircraft doesn't know it's upside down!

Here is an aileron roll I flew recently in a jet,
which I entered at the surface. It doesn't
get any easier than this:

http://www.pittspecials.com/images/roll.jpg

Didn't Bobby Younkin fly a Lear 23 on the
airshow circuit a couple years back? Gosh,
he could sure fly that Beech 18 of his.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by mcrit »

Strega wrote:Can you explain to me how a citation crashed doing a simple excercise such as a roll?
Well, IF the initial reports are true and the crew were trying to do a roll then the a/c crashed because the crew tried something they weren't trained to do. Just like a PPL going into IMC, or a guy that did all his training in Regina trying to .. run the mountains.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by North Shore »

Say, Hedley, did you move to Australia? That picture sure looks like it was taken there! :rolleyes:
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by jjj »

Strega wrote:JJJ

My point is most guys that fly the heavy iron, have the stick and rudder skills of 50 hour PPL when it comes to upset recovery etc....
posting.php?mode=reply&f=54&t=62365&sid ... 2eb74b85b5#

Strega, I think that you would find that a lot of Airline types are quite good at upset recovery. It's part of the training syllabus with a lot of operators. The plane is tossed around and put on it's back - the candidate then recovers - not a difficult maneuver.

Oh, and as far as stick and rudder skills are concerned - how is it that an airline guy can execute a 30 knot crosswind landing or a last minute runway change for a close in visual on the 19s in Vegas if their stick and rudder skills are so bad?

The autopilot has taken away a bit of the slick stuff from my Medevac days but I assure you that I can use the stick and rudder just fine.

Your statement is utterly absurd.

What next Strega?

You make this easy.


JJJ
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Blue Side Down »

Its always entertaining to hear the commentary from the guy who figures the rest of the world is full of retards just because the rest of the world exists outside his own mind.

I'd bet that it seemed like a perfectly good idea at the time and the pilot flying had successfully completed rolls in other appropriate types, and figured he had a half decent handle on things. Same thought process that the guy who figures he can roll a vanilla 152 after his buddy showed him how to do a roll in a Citabria last week, only jets tend not to have all that sh!t like wheels and struts hanging off the airframe to slow things down in time. "I'm gonna die doing this" probably doesn't pop into mind until it really doesn't matter anymore.

Dumb dumdum dum dum!
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Hedley »

ummmmm ....

A jet is far easier to roll than a Citabria.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Blue Side Down »

Sure, but is it any easier to decide to roll a jet than a Citabria?

Rhetorical question, sorry... I made mention there of the Citabria in a totally different context than the 'stick and rudder' skills burn this thread seems to have been on. The mechanics of a roll are pretty uniform across types so far as I've seen... decision making on the other hand, well, that's a different story.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by sidestick stirrer »

"For all you "heavy" drivers... when was the last time you rolled?"

Yesterday, actually, in a taildragger, and my regular job is the left seat of the 777...
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Strega »

JJJ

Whats so hard about driving an airliner on the runway in a crosswind?

I would hold much more respect for a pilot that can land a pitts in a 30knot cross wind as opposed to a 737 700......

Mind you what do I know...
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Strega wrote:JJJ

1) Whats so hard about driving an airliner on the runway in a crosswind?

2) I would hold much more respect for a pilot that can land a pitts in a 30knot cross wind as opposed to a 737 700......

3) Mind you what do I know...
You made sense in one out three sentences....the quality of your posts is improving.....
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Strega »

BFF,

You should know all about rolling jets,, you do have a L29 type rating.....................

I am still amazed that I am being flamed for calling a spade a spade...

Most airline pilots are NOT stick and rudder pilots....its a simple fact..
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Rockie »

Strega wrote:Most airline pilots are NOT stick and rudder pilots....its a simple fact..
You know this "simple fact" how?

Is it because your only experience with airlines is riding in the back, and you've never seen them barrel roll on the way to Vancouver?
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by '79K20driver »

Strega wrote:Mucktuk,,

Can you explain to me how a citation crashed doing a simple excercise such as a roll?
looproll wrote:something tells me that attempting aerobatics as you're near the coffin corner is not a good idea
Exactly. Even the +2g's during entry, as Hedley points out, would be enough to cause a 'jet upset' at 30000 plus feet. I doulbt if it's such a simple thing to do at high altitudes. All I know is that bank angles, roll rates and turbulence must be monitored very closely while flying near your max altitude. The idea that the aircraft should be able to perform a complete aileron roll at these altitudes is absurd.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Hedley »

The idea that the aircraft should be able to perform a complete aileron roll at these altitudes is absurd.
Legend has it that a U-2 pilot, flying at twice that altitude,
with a mere 5K margin in his coffin corner, saw an F-104
do the prettiest roll you ever did see around the U-2 :wink:

No names mentioned, of course. I've already been censored
once this week by the moderators here for that.
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Rockie »

Hedley wrote:Legend has it that a U-2 pilot, flying at twice that altitude,
with a mere 5K margin in his coffin corner, saw an F-104
do the prettiest roll you ever did see around the U-2
The 104 would have to have been going twice as fast. The U2 is subsonic, and a 104 would fall out of the sky at 60+ if it isn't going the speed of heat. And anything but a zero "g" aileron roll is going to put a positive load on the plane making it even worse.

http://www.friendsofcrc.ca/Milestones/A ... ecord.html
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Re: Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

Post by Hedley »

The 104 would have to have been going twice as fast
Correct - it was. Over mach 1.5, actually.

PS Buddy White was a friend of my father's. I ran across his
son here in Ottawa about 15 years ago. Small world!
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