Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

[Salt]

The operators that make it into VFR airports such as north spirit, arm strong and keewaywin on IFR days only helps to reinforce to the community that paying for an approach to be developed would be a waste of funds. Aircraft are able to make it in, why spend money for a service that is not required?

[126.75]

Doc, I know you hate the idea of a College. Honest question, if this group provided mentoring to help young pilots know what is right, what is wrong and if things are wrong what the proper avenues to correct the situation are would you support it? If not how do you suggest we implement a system to help steer the new guys down the right track, god only knows what we are doing now is not working.

I think the "college" has a thread of it's own? That said, your entire posts speaks to company culture, and working conditions.....subjects the "college" is quite clear in their intentions not to become involved in the subject. My last comment about the subject on this thread. You're way too hung up on altimeter settings......if you can actually SEE the ground, as is a REQUIREMENT for VFR BTW, it becomes a mute point.

You are right the college has it's own thread.

Personally the reason why I am describing the altimeter as a possible factor is more due to the Swiss cheese model, it should not be a factor but it could have been because of a potential situation where rules were broken. You and I can both agree that he should have never left an MSA unless he found himself in VMC. The reason why the altimeter setting could then become an issue is consider a "BS ILS" all of a sudden a few hundred feet become a big deal - it should NEVER come to that but let's face it, as of right now it has been allowed to fester and happens out there. What needs to happen is if anyone is caught doing a "BS ILS" with passengers haul them away and book them in jail for a year due to reckless endangerment. Without TC stepping up and putting their foot down the situation will never get better with people like C running companies.

[Doc]

The operators that make it into VFR airports such as north spirit, arm strong and keewaywin on IFR days only helps to reinforce to the community that paying for an approach to be developed would be a waste of funds. Aircraft are able to make it in, why spend money for a service that is not required?

True. And nobody seems to understand that the pop and chips can go tomorrow. Kind of wonder why we don't have more accidents, what with the attitude of some of the operators in the area?

[grimey]

Why are people so hung up about the altimeter? If he was IFR he shouldn't have been any lower than about 2800' (that'd be quite the altimeter error!). If he was VFR he should've had the airport and ground in sight by that point anyways.

After the altimeter setting being a suspect in the Lockhart Air accident at Cat Lake, everybody seems to be jumping on the altimeter setting band wagon. You are CORRECT!! The altimeter setting would have NOTHING to do with this accident.

It wasn't the cause of it, but a non-local altimeter setting would illustrate why crap like homebrewing an approach is dangerous. But yea, in order to get to that point he would already have had to make a shit ton of other errors in judgement leading to the accident.

[Doc]

Personally the reason why I am describing the altimeter as a possible factor is more due to the Swiss cheese model, it should not be a factor but it could have been because of a potential situation where rules were broken. You and I can both agree that he should have never left an MSA unless he found himself in VMC. The reason why the altimeter setting could then become an issue is consider a "BS ILS" all of a sudden a few hundred feet become a big deal - it should NEVER come to that but let's face it, as of right now it has been allowed to fester and happens out there. What needs to happen is if anyone is caught doing a "BS ILS" with passengers haul them away and book them in jail for a year due to reckless endangerment. Without TC stepping up and putting their foot down the situation will never get better with people like C running companies.

This guy had 150 or so hours with Keystone? I'd be willing to bet he wasn't familiar with the approach as you describe. Pilots really have to grow a pair!
Cheers

[cdnpilot77]

This guy had 150 or so hours with Keystone? I'd be willing to bet he wasn't familiar with the approach as you describe

And with the reputation of the company, seems it would have been much easier for the company to be a bully as a relatively new employer

[Doc]

I know, I can be a real pain in the ass. It's just that these things really drive me nutty. They are so avoidable. I tend to rant and rave, about mistakes made, company culture, etc., but it just drives me nuts! I just can't see how somebody's safety takes a back seat to the burning desire to jump through hoops for companies that will only piss on you if you screw up! Believe me, the difference between "hero and zero" can be a grave stone and an epitaph. If YOUR company has the "we never turn back" mentality, and YOU don't have the BRAINS to pull the plug on them, you sir, are a moron! Forget the money you paid into these criminals' pockets. If you're right side up and still breathing, it's time for a change. Depart the fix!

Once you've been "kicked" out the hangar door, and you're sitting in your airplane, with the weather going for a dump all around you, YOU are the ONLY person who can change that. Turn that puppy around an head home. If your boss gives you grief over it, he ain't worth a bucket of pimple pus! Depart the fix. C'MON MAN!

[Gorgons]

It seems everybody on this forum believes the flight operated IFR YWG direct KQ3 and is making a case that because there is no approach the flight was completely illegal and never should have been dispatched. By extension the company is guilty of wrong doing and should be shutdown. A few questions for all those in the know.

Has anybody on this sight actually seen a copy or know how the trip was flight planned?
Was anybody in the room when the management was forcing him out the door threatening him with his job?

I’m 100% confident that nobody is going to come forward and testify that the pilot was under any direct pressure to get in the aircraft and depart.

Has anybody considered the possibility that maybe he flew a legal IFR approach into ZSJ and transitioned the remaining 38 miles VFR to KQ3?

[chesty]

mabe he did? he still crashed a mile from the runway lined up with the center line! I'll put money on the fact that he could not see the runway!

[Lloyd YWG FIC]

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[Doc]

Question for Navajo drivers: I really should know but how good is the aircraft for keeping the windscreen clear in the event of substantial freezing drizzle?

After 32 years in FSS I'm kind of embarrassed to say I don't know how good different aircraft are at keeping the windscreen clean in freezing precip.

A huge problem with freezing precip isn't actually flying in it(as long as it's light), it's sitting in it on the ground. The airplane will ice up very quickly and you could be stuck there till you de-ice, and the precip stops. I've gone around with just this in mind. Okay, we can get in, but if we sit for four hours, we'll be here till June!

[lilflyboy262]

@ Gorgons,

That is the exact response that the operators give in court.
Operators stand there saying "This is our Standard Ops, this is what they are meant to do, he went against those ops." Knowing full well that since the pilot is no longer there to argue that fact, and if he is, it is a he says she says situation.

[Lloyd YWG FIC]

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[Doc]

Is it possible a fixed wing aircraft could run into this kind of situation? I.E. not being able to see forward or at least have their vision distorted by icing?

Oh yes....sure is. I had a DC3 windshield so iced up a few years ago we couldn't land till I got my head(somewhat) out the side window to land. It was squint city!

[Gorgons]

Are you throwing us a bone? icing entered my mind, forecast was right for it... warm front etc

I would say the ability of your windscreen heat to keep up is a poor instrument to use to decide whether to proceed or move on to plan B.

I'll wait for the TSB but given the local reports of local blizzard conditions I'm thinking whiteout effect played a role. Read a good article on the topic in aviation week...

From Aviation Week

Pilots who depart from or arrive at certain airports may find themselves in a whiteout--a meteorological milk bowl containing smooth, unbroken snow-covered ground, a uniform overcast sky and light reflections that make ground and sky visually inseparable.

According to the American Meteorological Society, in a whiteout, "Neither shadows, horizon nor clouds are discernible; sense of depth or orientation is lost; only very dark, nearby objects can be seen." The result is plenty of vertigo-inducing, sensor illusions when you're trying to make the transition between IMC and VMC on takeoff or landing. Your eyes don't focus on anything in particular. Objects that suddenly appear may not be visible because you're not focusing on anything in the background.

This is known as sector whiteout and it was a "major contributing factor" in a DC-10 controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) accident in 1979 on Mount Erebus in Antarctica, according to Human Factors for Aviation, a basic handbook published by Transport Canada. The crew of Air New Zealand Flight 901 lost visual reference to the horizon and surface obstructions even though the prevailing visibility was in excess of 40 miles.
The Canadians have become experts in winter flying, having learned from numerous accidents about the factors that can cause CFIT in whiteout conditions. Within the Canadian Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP), there's an entire section devoted to the hazards of whiteout.

According to the AIP, whiteout also can be caused by (1) thin clouds of supercooled water droplets making contact with a frigid snow surface, (2) fine, blowing snow that moderate winds can whip up into a cloud and (3) light snow precipitation falling from thin stratus clouds through which light from the sun is reflected.
Depth perception and spatial orientation are dependent upon the color, sheen and, especially, shadow of light from objects. A whiteout removes the color and sheen cues of objects. The diffused light from the overcast sky is reflected in all directions, thereby eliminating shadow cues. Say goodbye to recognizing terrain features or obstructions before they loom large in the windshield.

Doubtlessly, the biggest hazard from whiteout is its insidious nature. Pilots frequently encounter it in clear air, but don't recognize the condition. The AIP warns that "pilots have flown into snow-covered surfaces unaware that they have been descending and confident that they could 'see' the ground." In one accident, pilots of a turboprop inadvertently descended onto the surface of a frozen lake, several miles short of the runway, unaware that they didn't have visual contact with the terrain.

In another accident, the pilot of a helicopter was flying over a frozen lake while using a tree line at the far shore as a horizon reference. He failed to crosscheck the altimeter and flew the aircraft into the surface.
But the water doesn't have to be frozen to pose a hazard. When ap-proaching an airport from over water in nearly windless conditions with a low to medium altitude overcast and poor visibility, you can encounter gray-day spatial disorientation that's quite similar to whiteout. The lack of visible surface features denies you depth perception and horizon reference that are so essential to flying in VMC.

[Doc]

Are you throwing us a bone? icing entered my mind, forecast was right for it... warm front etc

Our guys missed YPM the same morning. Not sure of the time frame here, but pretty sure it would have been just before 10:00 local. They reported being "pretty iced up...." YPM is what? 40 miles from North Spirit. I'd be pretty amazed if the HO wasn't in at least some icing?

[Lloyd YWG FIC]

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[Doc]

We know there was icing in the area. C208 reported MDT-SVR icing in freezing drizzle 20 east of CYVZ around 1520Z and another aircraft (a member of this forum in fact) reported freezing drizzle in the area as well. Given that this pilot did not intend to land on the lake, I'm guessing there had to be other factors involved and not being able to see clearly or at all might be one of them?

I'm not a pilot so I'm asking questions that may seem dumb but if I can get a handle on some issues it will help me in my job.

And they're good questions. Happy to have you asking them.

[Lloyd YWG FIC]

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[Doc]

And they're good questions. Happy to have you asking them.

Okay, if I can ask a few more that I'm just mostly curious about and then I'll go back to lurking.

Is it possible that an aircraft could get heavy enough with ice, that being able to maintain altitude was not possible yet be able to keep control of the aircraft? And if so, would a pilot consider a controlled forced landing onto the ice if he knew/felt he could not make the runway? And if he did, is it better gear up or down? I'm trying to understand if there would ever be a case where the pilot would deliberately put it down where he did.

Last and final question, we were taught a little about carb icing. Is that still an issue with these sized twins or is it mainly the small single engine aircraft with pistons that have the carb icing problems?

I can sometimes learn more from reading stories here than I did on the basic met courses. (Probably would have been better to not use my name though, dumb move on my part. )

Yes, you can pick up enough ice to be unable to maintain altitude. And yet directional control may not be compromised. My vote would be gear down to absorb some of the energy hitting the ground. We've had so little snow of late, the airplane might actually survive. Of course, a prudent pilot will make a U-turn long before this happens.....we hope.
Carb ice, not an issue on these things. No carbs.
Stick around. Even using your real name shouldn't be a problem....you could rejoin and used a "handle" but let us know you're with FIC (don't have to disclose location).....we could learn a lot from you. It's a two way street...thanks for joining us.

[stef]

The FZDZ is a good guess as a factor. Will be hard for the TSB guys to figure it out for sure, but that front was a nasty one giving frequent 1/2 mile in snow mixed with the freezing drizzle.

Young guy. Maybe shy to be assertive. Maybe not comfortable to say no to go. Maybe an operator...you guys have said it enough; I don't want to get sued so without first hand knowledge I'll leave it at that. Maybe not comfortable to tell a snow plow driver to get the f off the runway when he's getting all iced up and put himself in a position where he felt he had to land.

It's a tough thing for a young pilot to know when to say no. Especially at an operator with no high paying jobs, and thus no experienced mentors outside of management to help with decisions like this. This thread will help.

[Gorgons]

I agree with Doc, good questions. Sorry if my response came across as smug, I was aiming for cheeky.

From my experience, all turbine equipment both under and over 12,500 lbs the windscreen heat has always kept up with -FRDZ and as long as the encounters were isolated and brief they generally didn’t present a problem. I do recall in an icing event in the early 90’s that occurred in an aircraft that weighted 45,000 lbs… in cruise on a 400 mile trip we ran into an unexpected car wash about 100 miles from destination. Windscreen heat on high couldn’t keep up, airspeed was dropping and we entered into a slow uncommanded descent. Aircraft was still “controllable” but climbing above the offending weather wasn’t an option and we were getting heavier with every mile covered. It was at night and we just got caught, it wasn’t forecast yet the system encompassed a large area. Turning back, climbing or descending to look for warmer air wasn’t an option. We got lucky… at about 50 miles from destination we exited the precipitation with lots of altitude to easily make the field, but we figured we only had one shot as we were still doing a long slow downhill slide, the airplane was buffeting and every now and then it shed a ton of ice off the props into the fuselage…scared the crap out of me the first time it happened! In any event we made the field and landed flapless and fast…after shutdown we inspected the aircraft, it was covered in the hardest clear ice you could imagine. Over an inch thick in some places, amazed the nose gear doors opened as it was at least an inch think from the top of the windscreen all the way down and under the nose and belly at least 10 feet back.

As far as gear up or gear down if your going to perform a forced landing, tough call. For me it would depend on what I thought the depth of the snow was, with minimal snow I would go gear down and hope for an rough ice strip type landing. If I felt there was deeper snow, I’d go for a gear up ditching type landing. I would fear flipping over in deeper snow with the gear down.

[Lloyd YWG FIC]

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[Doc]

I know I promised not to ask anymore questions but...when you say you landed "flapless and fast"...were the flaps left stowed so as to not induce more drag and risk a loss of control?

One of the "tricks of the trade" is if everything going for an shit in a handbasket, but the airplane is still flying, don't screw with it. Slowing down will change the airflow, maybe resulting in control issues. If it's controllable now, stick with the configuration you're in, and get it on the ground. Flare just above the ground, and hang on. Pretty doesn't count at this point......staying alive does.

[snoopy]

We know there was icing in the area. C208 reported MDT-SVR icing in freezing drizzle 20 east of CYVZ around 1520Z and another aircraft (a member of this forum in fact) reported freezing drizzle in the area as well. Given that this pilot did not intend to land on the lake, I'm guessing there had to be other factors involved and not being able to see clearly or at all might be one of them?

I'm not a pilot so I'm asking questions that may seem dumb but if I can get a handle on some issues it will help me in my job.

So can you post the missing weather? I find it hard to believe some agency doesn't have the 12Z archived somewhere...

Cheers,
Kirsten B.