17 days??!!!

[Old fella]

You can. It’s called seniority.

So the 35 year old captain with 2 young kids at home should be on the road 18 per month so the 60 year old can only work 8. Got it. Makes sense.

Glad you got the point….

Oh don’t forget. That 60 year old CA was once junior too. Difference is, not many had the career chance to be an AC Captain at 35!

I remember back in the early ‘80s when I was in YYT there was a bar downtown called Christians - may still be there. AC pilots on layover frequented the place mostly B727 crews I think. Anyway on occasion got opportunity to chat , don’t know how or why perhaps the aviation speak twigged mutual interest. Memories fade over that period of time but I thought one ‘27 second officer told me he was in that position for 5 yrs and a FO upgrade was possible within a year or two, DC-9 I would assume. Wouldn’t you be in the left seat of something this day and age at AC if you had 5-7 yrs on property

[mantogasrsrwy]

"I remember back in the early ‘80s when I was in YYT there was a bar downtown called Christians - may still be there. AC pilots on layover frequented the place mostly B727 crews I think. Anyway on occasion got opportunity to chat , don’t know how or why perhaps the aviation speak twigged mutual interest. Memories fade over that period of time but I thought one ‘27 second officer told me he was in that position for 5 yrs and a FO upgrade was possible within a year or two, DC-9 I would assume. Wouldn’t you be in the left seat of something this day and age at AC if you had 5-7 yrs on property"


Not that long ago those on flat play would have been trudging around in a Navajo covered in ice for 25k.

[CaptDukeNukem]

What a friggen generation we have to deal with now!
This is not a situation where because I had to deal with it so do you, seniority is something that takes time to accrue and benefit from all the things that come with it.
When my kids we young, Christmas was when ever dad could be home around that time, now that my kids are older, I have the seniority to be home for Christmas, guess what, both are in their 30s and married but still come home for Christmas and I am supposed to what, let you friggen want it now generation have it instead!
If you want social bidding, GO TO WESTJET!

It all makes sense now. Thanks

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Not that long ago those on flat play would have been trudging around in a Navajo covered in ice for 25k.

I did that but the difference is that I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I can't relate to the mindset at all that would want other people to have to do that just because I did. I just can't wrap my head around why anyone wants young pilots to go through what we did.

[CaptDukeNukem]

What’s a Navajo?

[mantogasrsrwy]

Not that long ago those on flat play would have been trudging around in a Navajo covered in ice for 25k.

I did that but the difference is that I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I can't relate to the mindset at all that would want other people to have to do that just because I did. I just can't wrap my head around why anyone wants young pilots to go through what we did.

On another thread they are discussing the difficulty in getting 25 hours night PIC cross country for their ATPL Sorry, but I can't have sympathy for someone with 25 hours of night PIC cross country whining about their airline job. I know many colleagues that feel the same way.

[Mr.Worldwide]

Not that long ago those on flat play would have been trudging around in a Navajo covered in ice for 25k.

I did that but the difference is that I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I can't relate to the mindset at all that would want other people to have to do that just because I did. I just can't wrap my head around why anyone wants young pilots to go through what we did.

No one is wishing hard times on anyone, but an ounce of gratitude would go a long way. I "paid my dues" bombing around in the arctic, paid them again at a regional, and paid again with 4 year fixed. Do I wish that on anyone? No! But don't expect much sympathy coming here with a wet ATPL, bitching and moaning about how hard done by you are! Take your 42% raise, 2 year flat pay, and go for the wide body FO or quick upgrade in year 3. Everyone senior to you did not have that luxury, especially if you're in your 20's.

[Dronepiper]

Pisses me off when the boomers assume that everyone coming to AC is a fresh atpl with 2000 hours. That accounts for maybe 5%. Maybe try reading the new hire profiles.

[DanWEC]

The problem is that it does nothing to correct the gigantic systemic issue we have with far too much carrot and seniority weighting for pay. Seniority should be about schedule, not pay.

Considering the ridiculous entry level progression, there's still no reasonable comparison to any other global major airline, and there's no point in mentioning other industries where someone with experience moves into a position which compensates them accordingly.

Like you said, it's great for a 20 something to get into AC. But that's it. @#$! anyone older than that.

[digits_]

seniority is something that takes time to accrue and benefit from all the things that come with it.

Right. And the most important factor that allows you to accrue seniority is also the one completely outside of your control: the stability of the airline you're flying for...

If yours goes bust tomorrow it's all gone. Regardless of 'paying your dues'. And then you get to enjoy those first few years of flat pay, while the senior guys will explain the value of seniority to you. And that it's normal you don't make as much until you pay your dues. But hey, it's only 4 years!

[cdnavater]

seniority is something that takes time to accrue and benefit from all the things that come with it.

Right. And the most important factor that allows you to accrue seniority is also the one completely outside of your control: the stability of the airline you're flying for...

If yours goes bust tomorrow it's all gone. Regardless of 'paying your dues'. And then you get to enjoy those first few years of flat pay, while the senior guys will explain the value of seniority to you. And that it's normal you don't make as much until you pay your dues. But hey, it's only 4 years!

I’m not sure what that has to do with anything, do you think there’s a chance at all for a national seniority system!
The companies wouldn’t go for it, and certainly pilots in a seniority system who have been waiting for their turn won’t go for it, so what’s the point.
Even WJ has seniority for everything except scheduling and I’d would assume there is some seniority involved there too, i remember hearing about some kind of point system that you used to assign priority for days off and the longer you were there the more points you had available but I admit I don’t really know but my point is simply this, you join a company with a seniority system, you start out with none and the longer you are there you gain it and life improves.

[digits_]

seniority is something that takes time to accrue and benefit from all the things that come with it.

Right. And the most important factor that allows you to accrue seniority is also the one completely outside of your control: the stability of the airline you're flying for...

If yours goes bust tomorrow it's all gone. Regardless of 'paying your dues'. And then you get to enjoy those first few years of flat pay, while the senior guys will explain the value of seniority to you. And that it's normal you don't make as much until you pay your dues. But hey, it's only 4 years!

I’m not sure what that has to do with anything

Quite a bit. If an FO makes 65% of a captain's wage, the blow of starting over is significantly better in comparison to suddenly only making 25% of your previous captain wage. That's why it's important that first year wages are somewhat reasonable. You'll never know when you too might need them when your airline in which you have decades of seniority goes bust.

Focussing on allegedly entitled 20 year olds getting hired at AC is a largely irrelevant discussion.

[cdnavater]

Right. And the most important factor that allows you to accrue seniority is also the one completely outside of your control: the stability of the airline you're flying for...

If yours goes bust tomorrow it's all gone. Regardless of 'paying your dues'. And then you get to enjoy those first few years of flat pay, while the senior guys will explain the value of seniority to you. And that it's normal you don't make as much until you pay your dues. But hey, it's only 4 years!

I’m not sure what that has to do with anything

Quite a bit. If an FO makes 65% of a captain's wage, the blow of starting over is significantly better in comparison to suddenly only making 25% of your previous captain wage. That's why it's important that first year wages are somewhat reasonable. You'll never know when you too might need them when your airline in which you have decades of seniority goes bust.

Focussing on allegedly entitled 20 year olds getting hired at AC is a largely irrelevant discussion.

Non of it is relevant, the pilot’s choice is the only thing that is relevant, AC pilots are not responsible to make the entry pay enticing to attract pilots from other airlines, that is the company’s problem!
Do you think the Porter pilots had anything to do with the increasing wages?
Now that Porter is sitting there with a slowed growth plan and not hiring DEC, I wonder how much the starting pay will go up with/if there is another benchmark wages review!
If a pilot chooses to stay at Flair instead of applying to AC, that is their choice, it may backfire and of course a lot of told you so but they will be starting over, how is that the problem of the AC pilots!
I have stated in the past and I wholeheartedly believe it should be, all airlines should recognize PIC hours pilots arrive with, make a baseline and every 1000 above that gets you a step in pay when you join, that will apparently never happen so there really is no point in discussing it!

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

I feel like a 3rd World Class pilot with my pay check

[safetyfirst123]

If a pilot chooses to stay at Flair instead of applying to AC, that is their choice, it may backfire and of course a lot of told you so but they will be starting over, how is that the problem of the AC pilots!
I have stated in the past and I wholeheartedly believe it should be, all airlines should recognize PIC hours pilots arrive with, make a baseline and every 1000 above that gets you a step in pay when you join, that will apparently never happen so there really is no point in discussing it!

And that's why it's being discussed. It's cornering experienced pilots who's timing didn't work out to join Air Canada when hiring was stagnant. Raising wages is not just about raising the top scales. If you only raise the top scales, and leave the bottom scales ridiculously low as they are now, that doesn't help further increase the top scales. It's narrow-minded to focus on the top, because if starting wages at AC were comfortably over $100K, you'd see far more experienced pilots apply, and that would increase pressure on other airlines to increase their wages to keep their experienced pilots. Guess what happens, the top scales don't suffer in that process, they go up too, albeit maybe not as much as the bottom. Sometimes you have to focus on the upper end, and sometimes you have to focus on the bottom. Both needed work right now, but more should have been done at the bottom in this contract.

If we continue to think like you, we will never be at par with the Americans again. And guess what, we used to be very close, and now we are at a 50% discount. Well done.