Chinese captain goes to jail

[timel]

http://www.china.org.cn/china/2014-12/1 ... 361582.htm

Just curious if anyone is aware of cases with pilots going to prison for dangerous behaviour, followed by a crash in North America or Europe?

When you go for captain you get the money and responsibility.

[Antique Pilot]

http://www.china.org.cn/china/2014-12/1 ... 361582.htm

Just curious if anyone is aware of cases with pilots going to prison for dangerous behaviour, followed by a crash in North America or Europe?

When you go for captain you get the money and responsibility.

On Oct 8, 1979 a Swissair DC-8 over ran a runway while landing at Athens. 14 passengers were killed. Both pilots were convicted of manslaughter at a trial in 1983. The Captain was sentenced to 5 years in prison and the F.O. was sentenced to 2.5 years. Both prison sentences were cancelled when a fine was paid.

AP

[Inverted2]

Didn't someone get charged out in YWG about 10 years ago in a Navajo that ran out of gas and crashed onto a street near the airport? Don't know if he actually did any time or not, just remember hearing about it.

[SnotRocket]

Didn't someone get charged out in YWG about 10 years ago in a Navajo that ran out of gas and crashed onto a street near the airport? Don't know if he actually did any time or not, just remember hearing about it.

They dropped all charges except for one. Last I heard he was employed as a dispatcher for a carrier in Alberta.

[snowbear]

http://www.airdisaster.com/cvr/kal2033.shtml.
Google the rest of the story, it took a few twists along the way.
Barry was with TC in the late 70's. I did a ride with him. Nice guy.

[Panama Jack]

Just curious if anyone is aware of cases with pilots going to prison for dangerous behaviour, followed by a crash in North America or Europe?

When you go for captain you get the money and responsibility.

Yes, it does happen abroad, in spite of efforts to introduce Just Culture as a tool to enhance aviation safety, the attraction to penalize is all too irresistible.

Being a Captain does mean enhanced responsibility, however, thie increase in pay which comes with the 4th bar was never intended as a hedge fund for posting one's own bail if one day things go terribly wrong.

https://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/magaz ... nTrial.pdf

[single_swine_herder]

Interesting discussion.

I have to ask the question, where does a minor human error/negligence cross the line from being "Oh well, things happen," to being held responsible for killing somebody?

If a drunken taxi driver screws up by error or by intentionally violating the norms of the road and "T-Bones" a family mini-van and kills a couple of them, leaving another one or two crippled for life .... what in the minds of the aviation community thinks that similar flagrant actions should not be held to account?

The concepts of "Just Culture" are that while mistakes or human errors are not to be punished, they are to be systemically corrected for the purposes of preventing others from being caught in the same trap.

Once you move into serious acts of intentionally departing from the training or "accepted norms" of the industry, then punishment is scaled to match the degree of the offense.

To some, suitable "punishment" is .... "Aw, come on ... the guy feels bad about it." To others, like the children or wife of a person killed, that simply isn't acceptable based exclusively on the death occurring in an aircraft rather other mode of transportation.

I had a heated exchange a number of years ago with one member of the forum who was highly miffed that his employer expected him to operate their machinery in the same way they taught him during annual training .... what a radical concept.

Another that I interacted with was excellent at doing things in accordance with training and once the PPC was completed, went back to his own way of running the multimillion dollar equipment and driving his FO's wild by being a disrespectful One Man Band in the cockpit with his own SOPs but then was shocked and horrified that he was taken to task for it when he endangered the passengers and other crew.

There seems to be a segment of the pilot population that feels strongly that if a PIC makes a decision, regardless of how flawed or disastrous the outcome that the PIC's decision should be fully supported by everyone around him or her.

I look forward to hearing from others on the point of "where is the line drawn?" between the group that advocate "Aw, leave the pilot alone, he feels bad," and the other extreme of "drag him into the town square and hang him" as if he were the Captain of a B-52 that had just bombed Hanoi and bailed out.

[Big Pistons Forever]

A "just culture" does not prevent disciplinary action from being taken against a pilot. Willful conduct or neglect, a criminal act, or use of illegal drugs are widely recognized as cases where it can be appropriate to take disciplinary action against a pilot.

The thrust of just culture is to encourage employees to report hazards and incidents with the knowledge that the response will use a system that concentrates on "what" when wrong, not on "Who" went wrong. This will allow proactive hazard identification and rectification before the bad thing happens. TEM (Threat, Error, Management) concepts build on this by starting with the supposition that humans will make errors. Zero errors 100 % of the time is simply an unrealistic goal in any operation that requires human judgement in real time. Therefor the current thinking is to look at identifying areas where are errors are both more likely and with a higher consequence and designing additional redundancies to mitigate adverse consequences.

In any case these systems only work if there is an effective bottom up reporting system. As soon as there is a perception that management will use a report against an individual, rather than as an opportunity to effect an improvement in the operation, the system will become ineffective.

Sadly deep seated cultural norms in most Asian cultures work against these concepts which is, IMO, why Asian airlines have a higher accident rate than Western airlines.

[SheriffPatGarrett]

One Quebec government's pilot got five years in jail for murdering a drinking buddy
in Fort Chimo...today's Kuujuak, by buzzing him and ripping his head off with the floats...

Out of jail, he got his licence right back and was famous for terrorizing truck divers with his buzzing
around Baie Comeau, Mulroney's birth place.(They had to strap long poles to their cabs to shoo him away)

I even heard he ended up as a DOT inspector, 'tho' I had a hard time believing that one...
but with the DOT, anything is possible.

As soon as there is a perception that management will use a report against an individual, etc...

Ha! So what do you think of the FAA fining a company $100,000 if a pilot fly ONE MINUTE over the max
but only fine them $50,000 if it is the company that report their own crews(with the pilot fined $50,000 too)

[Big Pistons Forever]

Ha! So what do you think of the FAA fining a company $100,000 if a pilot fly ONE MINUTE over the max

I think that there is a lot more going on with that operator than being "one minute" over a duty time limit.........

[Panama Jack]

A "just culture" does not prevent disciplinary action from being taken against a pilot. Willful conduct or neglect, a criminal act, or use of illegal drugs are widely recognized as cases where it can be appropriate to take disciplinary action against a pilot.

The thrust of just culture is to encourage employees to report hazards and incidents with the knowledge that the response will use a system that concentrates on "what" when wrong, not on "Who" went wrong. This will allow proactive hazard identification and rectification before the bad thing happens. TEM (Threat, Error, Management) concepts build on this by starting with the supposition that humans will make errors. Zero errors 100 % of the time is simply an unrealistic goal in any operation that requires human judgement in real time. Therefor the current thinking is to look at identifying areas where are errors are both more likely and with a higher consequence and designing additional redundancies to mitigate adverse consequences.

In any case these systems only work if there is an effective bottom up reporting system. As soon as there is a perception that management will use a report against an individual, rather than as an opportunity to effect an improvement in the operation, the system will become ineffective.

Sadly deep seated cultural norms in most Asian cultures work against these concepts which is, IMO, why Asian airlines have a higher accident rate than Western airlines.

Well put, Big Pistons. Unfortunately, I have seen such attempts by operations who try to promote a reporting culture come undone by mid-level managers who have used the content against the reporter, resulting in a cultural code of "Omertà". Trust takes time to build but can easily be destroyed.

[SheriffPatGarrett]

I think that there is a lot more going on with that operator than being "one minute" over a duty time limit.........

I was not mentioning a specific case but a general policy...jet cargo operators all keep flying right to the limit...so you keep looking 12 months before to see if you dropped time so you can fly, if not you must decline the trip...and the feds fine the pilot who err, just like the truck drivers AND the company so THEY rat on their pilots to alleviate the fine...so, so much for "just culture"...it's really a KGB-Homeland Security police state mindset.

Remember Brazil, who jailed the ATC men and the pilots to make forget the shortcomings of their whole Aviation system

[YYZSaabGuy]

Remember Brazil, who jailed the ATC men and the pilots to make forget the shortcomings of their whole Aviation system

Not quite. The Brazilian air traffic controllers were acquitted, with the exception of one who was sentenced to community service. Both of the American pilots were tried in absentia and found guilty, but had their sentences commuted to community service.

[trey kule]

......and the Chinese pilot has not actually gone to jail,,as he filed an appeal

[timel]

Great posts!
I think that Just Culture is important in companies, but pilot acting recklessly should assume some consequences. Maybe not prison though.


In the specific case of the Chinese captain, maybe the government is trying to send a message to pilots.

[single_swine_herder]

Thanks for chiming in Timel .... I'm still hung up on what is the magic about somebody killing people in or with an airplane through reckless or gross negligence as opposed to other form of transportation.,..... and for clarity, I'm referring to an utterly stupid demonstration of recklessness, or gross negligence as opposed to a human error, or a poor decision with a minor outcome like some scratched paint.

Where does the expectation come from that a pilot can be exempted from the consequences of Criminal Negligence Causing Death simply because the vehicle has wings on the side?

I don't get that if a buddy takes my child for a joy ride in a 172, flies under a bridge, hits an abutment with a wing and my boy dies when the airplane hits the water, trapping him and he drowns while buddy swims away .... why should the pilot get off with .... "Oh, leave him alone, he feels bad about it."

Is it some form of "We're all Knights Of The Air," and enjoy the camaraderie of a clear blue sky day, or just a general inability to accept responsibility for one's actions?

The Criminal Code of Canada states ....

Criminal negligence

219. (1) Every one is criminally negligent who
(a) in doing anything, or
(b) in omitting to do anything that it is his duty to do,
shows wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of other persons.
Definition of “duty”
(2) For the purposes of this section, “duty” means a duty imposed by law.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 202.
Marginal note:Causing death by criminal negligence

220. Every person who by criminal negligence causes death to another person is guilty of an indictable offence and liable
(a) where a firearm is used in the commission of the offence, to imprisonment for life and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of four years; and
(b) in any other case, to imprisonment for life.

221. Every one who by criminal negligence causes bodily harm to another person is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.

[timel]

Singleswineherder, if you can prove some private pilot did fly under a bridge intentionally and killed a pax because of that.
It all comes down to prove criminal negligence I guess.

From the ALPA article of Panama Jack.

"An accident, by definition, is an occur- rence that is not expected, foreseen, or intended. By definition, then, an accident cannot be a crime.”

It is interesting to note that, if you get involved into an accident in a foreign country, being Canadian or American will not give you the immunity. Something you must be aware if you have to deal with foreign authorities.

[bobcaygeon]

Agree or disagree, I think using ALPA as your source is a tad but biased. Now back to watching ice pilots to see how aviation really works