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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:12 pm 
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I am seriously considering getting my instructor rating in the Ottawa region. Any advice would be welcome (is it even wise to do it there vs. anywhere else -considering I want to get a job afterwards- ).
Thanks.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:47 am 
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Hello Sebas380

It's great to hear that you are considering a flight instructor rating. It's a great and fun way to kick-start a career in aviation, build some time and gain valuable experience in an aircraft.

I did my flight instructor rating out of Ottawa Aviation Services and was hired right away after I passed my flight test. I've been instructing there for almost 2 years now and have absolutely no regrets whatsoever. The environment is very friendly and the staff is real easy to get along with. We offer a new trainer (Katana) as well as a Beech 19, Grob G115 and C172 on which you'll have a chance to teach once you are done. The best part is that the schedule is quite flexible and you will be kept busy.

The actual training towards your flight instructor rating is done by our CFI. He's got various experience as a pilot and has an extensive background in flight training. The training you receive from him is top-notch and he'll prepare you to be the best flight instructor and familiarize you with various scenarios that you can potentially run into with your future students

Visit our website: http://www.ottawaflighttraining.com or better yet, stop by! We're at 220 Hunt Club road which is just after the lights at Riverside. Come check us out and meet the staff. I guarantee you won't be disappointed!

PM me if you have any further questions! I'd be delighted to answer them for you.



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:34 am 
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There are a few flight schools to consider in Ottawa. I won't get into which one is better than any other, because I've have a biassed opinion, considering I work at one of them. Here are the schools to consider:

Rockcliffe Flying Club (Rockcliffe Airport)
http://www.rfc.ca/

Ottawa Flying Club (Ottawa International)
http://www.ofc.ca/

Ottawa Aviation Services (Ottawa International)
http://www.ottawaflighttraining.com/

Westair (Carp)

I'd suggest visiting each school before making a decision. Don't be shy to ask in person regarding working at the school when you're done your training.

Good Luck!



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:45 am 
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Jusdt thought I'd add a link for Westair as well :wink:

http://www.westair-aviation.com/



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:58 pm 
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I am in the same situation as Sebas380. I am currently working on my Commercial and would like to do my instructor rating at another school that offers the potential to get hired there after finishing training. I will check out the ones mentioned above but does anyone have any other schools that they can suggest- not just in the Ottawa area but all across Ontario. Also, if the school offered a Multi-IFR rating as well that would be a big plus.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:12 pm 
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Got2Fly wrote:
Jusdt thought I'd add a link for Westair as well :wink:

http://www.westair-aviation.com/


Thanks! I was having trouble finding that one. :)



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:09 pm 
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I visited all the flying clubs in the summer to find the best one for training. I decided that Rockcliffe was the best for me. Second was OFC I used to fly with OAS.. not bad.. but i think other places would be better, OAS said they only hire who they train from the start, most of the time.
Rockcliffe was really professional, very informative, gave positive feedback as well as constructive feedback. Simon is a great CFI.

OFC.. ididnt really get to know them, I had an interview about starting trainning there. They seemed alright and they knew what they were doing.

I dont really know alot about westair aviation, but I know got2fly, and he says nothing but good things about them.



Last edited by fly_guy on Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:27 am 
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Hello,

I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience at OAS when you stopped by to visit. Unfortunately, the point of this post was for the user to gather some information about local area schools, and not to receive defamed comments about them. Perhaps you caught an instructor on a bad day (who doesn't have those once in a while)... though i'm happy you liked Donna's comments.

I started my flight training at one school and then moved to OAS. I find it hard to believe that OAS' instructors "didn't know a whole lot", as they wouldn't be in the business if that is true. They have instructors with various experience. From aerospace engineers to web graphics designers who are almost always friendly! Let's not forget, newer aircraft, ramp staff and no membership fees, as well as a 100% turn-over rate. Oh yeah and their prices haven't gone up all that much since fuel prices have gone up and they've managed to keep some luxuries that other schools had to let go (ie: ramp and dispatch).

As it was said earlier, the best way to find a school that best suits you is to actually go and visit them. Too bad flight training has turned into a competition among other schools. What ever happend to working together and making great pilots!

ProPilot



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:15 am 
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Fly Guy, I have never before posted anything on this webb site but your outrageous and petty comments about my previous employer, OAS, have changed that. I was there as an employee when you came in looking for your rating, after you left it was the the decision of all of us that with your attitude you would not fit into what is a very happy small company, yes you went elswhere but even they chose not to employ you, now I see on another part of this site you are calling your present employer a liar, not smart as all of us passing through your present location know who you are , and by the wayI know your boss and he is a very decent person who moves pilots up from the ramp after SATISFACTORY work on the ramp, get it? As for your jibes about instructor qualifications, lets see now, at the time you turned up, CFI ex military, deputy CFI, graduate aerospace engineer, class one aerobaticsa ect, and all the others over two thousand hours instruction, and the owners, thier background is so respected I wont bother to go into it. Next time I fly through you way with the worlds ugliest aircraft I will introduce myself and right seater, both ex OAS and owing everthing to the two oldies who own the company.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:07 am 
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Caveat emptor.

I won't mention any names, but one of the Chief Flight Instructors in the Ottawa area is well-known in the industry for "milking" students for hours, a practice which I find personally offensive.

Again, I'm not mentioning any names, but ask your next instructor how many hours his last 3 students took, to get their private pilot's licence. If the answer is 120 hours (!!) well, either move along or be prepared to spend $15,000 for your private pilot's licence.

This same instructor told a young fellow I know that a commercial pilot flight test would require FIVE (5) pre-flight tests. wtf?!

No names mentioned anybody, so don't get upset, unless you think the above describes you, in which case you've got much bigger problems than me telling the truth on the internet.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:21 am 
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Hedley, any idea how we managed to get private licenses in 30 hours on tail wheel airplanes, and today it takes around 75 on simple 150 / 172's?

Cat


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After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:39 am 
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Chuck: we wish people could get their private pilot's licences in 75 hours! As I said, the CFI at the one Ottawa-area school I am referring it, averages 120 hours for a private licence, on nosewheel aircraft!

I got out of the CFI/instructing business full-time just after the recreational pilot permit was added to the CARs. But my first recreational pilot candidate did his flight test and got his recreational pilot permit with 25.3 hours in his personal flight log.

As I get older, I try really hard not to start sentences with "I remember when" ... but I also soloed on a tailwheel aircraft, after less than 5 hours of dual flight instruction, and I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed.

So, what's gone wrong? Part of the problem is that flight instructors fear Transport Canada. If you read the CARs, if too many students of a flight instructor flunk their flight tests, Transport will yank the flight instructor's rating. I am not making this up - if anyone wants the CARs reference I will look it up and paste a URL here.

The other problem, is that as other costs soar (insurance, fuel) flight instructors are paid less and less per hour. The temptation to "milk" and get paid more, and log some more hours, at horrific cost to the student, is too much for some instructors to resist.

However, these instructors get to be known in the industry - just talk to their former students. Other instructors know who the "milkers" are, too.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:46 am 
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Cat, it gets worse, was visiting my old boss when a kid came for an aerobatic check out, 150hrs to get his PPL and was told by previous FTU that only they could check him out in a four seat aircraft, boss sat with parents and explained life to them without saying a single nasty thing about the other place, a masterfull perfomance.Talking to old boss his father went to war in RFC with seven and a half hours and he went to sqadron in a later confrontation with just under 300hrs, but part of the problem is the endless totally irelevant crap I was forced to teach by TC, but then you have expressed you feelings on this subject before, I gues when you return to Canada the fuel costs wont shock you after what you have been paying in your location.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:16 pm 
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" So, what's gone wrong? Part of the problem is that flight instructors fear Transport Canada. If you read the CARs, if too many students of a flight instructor flunk their flight tests, Transport will yank the flight instructor's rating. I am not making this up - if anyone wants the CARs reference I will look it up and paste a URL here. "

When I owned aflight school about 15 years ago it was exactly the same, the instructors lived in cowering fear of TC penalizing them for a student failing a flight test when they recommend them for the test.

Unfourtunately for the industry this will not change because TC will not change, why should they?

Where else in the civilized world can you find people in a position of power where they can ruin someones ability to earn a living based on either a subjective decision or just plain biased decision making because they want to show their power?

As I have so many times stated, it does not matter how unfair or just plain wrong a TC inspector is they will be backed up 100% by their superiors and they are never ever fired regardless of how incompetent or just plain corrupt they may be. And of course it is because the system is corrupt right to the top.

Fear of course works two ways, if these inspectors were dealt with by us the industry by us refusing to accept them as exminers or in any other capacity it would eventually bring some fairness back into the manner in which they operate.....

...but alas it will never happen because the owners know that any resistance to the absolute power that TC " thinks "they hold will result in the eventual destruction of their company by TC.

To the best of my knowlege I am the only one that truly stood up to them and to this day show no fear of them...however they did bankrupt me and my company and are comfortable in the beliefe that no one else will do what I did...Maybe some day one or more of these vermin will be found beaten almost to death in some back alley and if nothing else it may reverse the fear factor.

Cat.


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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:18 pm 
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Quote:

"So, what's gone wrong? Part of the problem is that flight instructors fear Transport Canada. If you read the CARs, if too many students of a flight instructor flunk their flight tests, Transport will yank the flight instructor's rating. I am not making this up - if anyone wants the CARs reference I will look it up and paste a URL here. "

When I owned aflight school about 15 years ago it was exactly the same, the instructors lived in cowering fear of TC penalizing them for a student failing a flight test when they recommend them for the test.

Unfourtunately for the industry this will not change because TC will not change, why should they?

Where else in the civilized world can you find people in a position of power where they can ruin someones ability to earn a living based on either a subjective decision or just plain biased decision making because they want to show their power?

As I have so many times stated, it does not matter how unfair or just plain wrong a TC inspector is they will be backed up 100% by their superiors and they are never ever fired regardless of how incompetent or just plain corrupt they may be. And of course it is because the system is corrupt right to the top.

Fear of course works two ways, if these inspectors were dealt with by us the industry by us refusing to accept them as exminers or in any other capacity it would eventually bring some fairness back into the manner in which they operate.....

...but alas it will never happen because the owners know that any resistance to the absolute power that TC " thinks " they hold will result in the eventual destruction of their company by TC.

To the best of my knowlege I am the only one that truly stood up to them and to this day show no fear of them...however they did bankrupt me and my company and are comfortable in the beliefe that no one else will do what I did...Maybe some day one or more of these vermin will be found beaten almost to death in some back alley and if nothing else it may reverse the fear factor.

Cat.


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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:47 am 
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Well, fly_guy, a school is moslty what you make of it... to an extent... obviously OAS can only be so good as their employees have only moved on to places like Sanders, Fugro, First Air, Air Canada, Bearskin, Jazz, The Emmirates, Sprint, Georgian, Cathay, H&L, Air Kenya, and a few other places you may have heard of...(only one felt the need for Jetsgo :yawinkle: )

Last i heard, OAS still treats their employees to free beers after a hard days' work and opportunities to fly for fun outside of the school -(a winter's day of ski flying)- opportunities that are awarded to hard working, respectable and deserving intstuctors or rampies. I may be biased, but i can say friendliness is not someting you will be short of at OAS, and knowledge isn't something lacking at any of the schools in the Ottawa Area...
sooo, why aren't you instructing in Ottawa, fly_guy?
fly safe, ww


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:49 pm 
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Cat...

You have an interesting point.

Cat Driver wrote:
When I owned a flight school about 15 years ago it was exactly the same, the instructors lived in cowering fear of TC penalizing them for a student failing a flight test when they recommend them for the test.


Okay, fair enough. My question to you is: Who should recommend them?

If the flight instructor (and flight training unit, and Transport Canada being the regulator) did not have the responsibility for quality control (ie: successful pass of a flight test) then who will? The students training depend on the instructor. The Instructor depends on the flight school. The flight school depends on revenue. Where does it end?

If no standard is set, if no one takes responsibility for the quality (or is forced to) then... don't expect good results.

In a perfect world, there would be no requirement for quality control. There would be no flight test records-- there would be no need. The reality is that there does need to be checks and balances.

Is this the best solution? I believe we could be better. Should instructors (etc.) be responsible for the quality of their product (the student)... I say absolutely!

I think you need to realize it is a much deeper issue.

If you have any suggestions on how to improve this situation, I would love to hear them!

-TC Guy



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:09 am 
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Hedley...

Hedley wrote:
So, what's gone wrong? Part of the problem is that flight instructors fear Transport Canada. If you read the CARs, if too many students of a flight instructor flunk their flight tests, Transport will yank the flight instructor's rating. I am not making this up - if anyone wants the CARs reference I will look it up and paste a URL here.


I think you may be thinking about some of the older, more "draconian" rules.

CARS 421.67 Flight Test Record

(3) Follow-up Action
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(a) Action will be taken only when the flight test failures can be attributed to the performance of the flight instructor;
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(b) Once this causal connection is made and the extent of the problem determined, a plan of action designed to assess and effectively deal with the problem will be developed and implemented by the Minister;
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(c) The plan of action referred to in paragraph (b) shall include, but is not limited to:
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(i) observation of in-flight, or ground instruction conducted by the flight instructor;
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(ii) consultation with the Chief Flight Instructor where the flight instructor is employed at a flight training unit; and
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(iii) remedial flight, or ground training from appropriate sources.
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(d) After implementation of the plan of action referred to in paragraph (b), if more than two of the next five flight tests result in failures, the flight instructor may be required to complete a flight instructor rating flight test as outlined in the Flight Test Standard Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane, Helicopter, Aerobatic (TP5537).
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)


I think it is self explanitory.

Link:http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part4/Standards/421.htm#421_67

I hope this helps!

-TC Guy



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:58 am 
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Good morning TC Guy:

I will try and reply to your post in a friendly and intelligent manner, but bear in mind that I just returned home and my body and brain still thinks I'm nine hours away.. :mrgreen:

First allow me to express my beliefe that you are who you say you are and judging by your posts to this point in time you are an example of what the flight training industry desperately needs judging by your attitude.

So lets dissect some of your post and see if you and I can in fact make a difference for the better.


" If no standard is set, if no one takes responsibility for the quality (or is forced to) then... don't expect good results.

In a perfect world, there would be no requirement for quality control. There would be no flight test records-- there would be no need. The reality is that there does need to be checks and balances. "


Once again your comment is valid and on the surface seems to be logical, however " Quality control " is a two way street.

First may I point out to you that I personally am one of the most demanding and uncompromizing teachers of the art of flying in the flying game, even though I do not personally teach in your country I do understand most of the background issues that drive your system and have a deep insite into some of the problems that devide you the regulator and those who are the regulated.

The reason for the fear factor on the part of Canadian flight instructors is the lack of " Quality Control " within the body of the regulator.

When the regulator refuses to deal with renegades within its own structure and instead punishes the client as TC so fondly likes to refer to the industry there will only be two end results, fear and resentment on the part of the regulated.

Lets deal with the Pacific Region an examine how this situation is allowed to continue.

As you all are aware, I have kept on hammering at the lack of moral authority and outright unlawful behaviour on the part of several of TC's top management, so lets drop down to the bottom of TC's structure and have a look at one of the reasons that the system is disfunctional in the Pacific Region....and hopefully the new manager that took over from R.I will read my comments and suggestions....By the way I personally know the new guy that took over at 800 Burrard after R.I. retired, and before the decision on who would replace R. was made I told the new guy that I hoped he would get the position as I did and still do believe he was and still is the best choice.

Now to my point, TC has an Inspector working out of the office in Vancouver that is hated and feared by every flight instructor that I have talked to, I went as far as J. D. in Ottawa demanding the firing of this individual, all I got from J. D. was jerked off with platitudes and evasion of the issue.

So in that I am quite willing to name the Inspector and can show enough documentation that stood up as being factual in several of TC own internal investigations, maybe you could share your thoughts on "Quality Control " or rather the lack thereof within flight training at 800 Burrard....of course we will quickly end up right back at the top in the offices of D.N and his mentor in Ottawa M.P.

Anyhow I hope you and I can discuss this in a civilized and thoughtful manner....cause I see a glimmer of hope from your posts to this point. :smt003

800 Burrard is only one example of disfuntional management Canada wide in TC's structure, I use it as an example because I can back up my allegations with credible evidence.

Cat


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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:19 pm 
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Cat...

Cat Driver wrote:
I will try and reply to your post in a friendly and intelligent manner, but bear in mind that I just returned home and my body and brain still thinks I'm nine hours away..

First allow me to express my beliefe that you are who you say you are and judging by your posts to this point in time you are an example of what the flight training industry desperately needs judging by your attitude.


Thank you again for your kind words. I have never mislead anybody as to my professional position.

I understand that you have had difficulties with the regulator (of which I cannot comment) so I will not.

I can say that in order for the current flight training structure to work, there must be (as best as possible) a co-operative relationship. As you have indicated, this may not always be possible-- I could also tell you horror stories of mis-managed flying schools, ripped off students, and dangerous flying practices.

As far as I am aware, Cat.. we have never met-- but if we ever do, I would hope you would extend me the respect I would extend to you... even if I am wearing a shirt that says "Transport Canada".

Cat Driver wrote:
Anyhow I hope you and I can discuss this in a civilized and thoughtful manner....cause I see a glimmer of hope from your posts to this point.

As I see from yours. :)

-TC Guy

PS: Mods... sorry for the off topic post.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:47 pm 
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" As far as I am aware, Cat.. we have never met-- but if we ever do, I would hope you would extend me the respect I would extend to you... even if I am wearing a shirt that says "Transport Canada". "

I usually respond to others based on their attitudes at any given time, therefore as a professional in this industry I would in all likelyhood treat you in a professional manner.

However the shirt would raise an inner resentment against who you repersent not who you are..

If only TC would weed out people such as the flight training inspector whom I was referring to just think how more co-operative people such as me would be when confronted by someone wearing that shirt.

Maybe, just maybe you and I will manage to swim around in this pool and clear up some of the water..what think you? :mrgreen:


" I could also tell you horror stories of mis-managed flying schools, ripped off students, and dangerous flying practices. "

With all due respect, there should be the expectation that someone in the employ of Transport Canada and mandated to uphold the law and ensure compliance of the industry not demonstrate a disregard for same by abusing the power of the office they hold.

Sure there are many in aviation who disregard the law and bend rules and are nothing short of being criminal in the manner that they operate...but when the regulator refuses to police their own that in my opinion makes the regulator far worse than any in industry who break the rules.

The problem we as an industry face is TC lacks the will to police their own, resulting in people like me going public in an attempt to educate the masses in just how disfunctional TC really is.

So why not get rid of these people who are demeaning the shirt you wear?

Cat


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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:52 pm 
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Cat...

Cat Driver wrote:
Maybe, just maybe you and I will manage to swim around in this pool and clear up some of the water..what think you?


I think we are making small steps in that direction now.

As to the rest of your statement:

The only thing that I (and a small cog in the rather large TC organization... 4200 people to be exact) can do is follow my mandate, and to do so fairly and without malace. I am also lucky enough to work with many very good, honest, hard working people-- that want the same thing as you and I.

Cat Driver wrote:
With all due respect, there should be the expectation that someone in the employ of Transport Canada and mandated to uphold the law and ensure compliance of the industry not demonstrate a disregard for same by abusing the power of the office they hold.


I do not think anyone will argue this point, least of all me.

Again, I cannot, and will not speak to specifics that have happened in the past-- I was simply not there nor involved in any way, shape or form.

Good discussion... and points taken.

-TC Guy



Last edited by TC Guy on Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:24 pm 
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TC Guy:

I appreciate your position and fully understand the limitaitions that you are wise to stay within when responding to specific allegations made by someone such as I.

In this relatively small world of aviation I probably am a rare bird that has made the decision to speak freely and without any reservations regarding the situation within the top levels of TC and clearly identify who I am, as well as clearly identify those who I believe are corrupting the regulator.

By doing so it has to give credibility to the statments that I make in this public forum, and trust me it has a cost involved. It is my hope that eventually I will in some way help to bring about a shift in the way TC's inner workings are conducted, I am sure that the DGCA and some of his cronies would love to find some way to silence me, however like all true cowards they lack the backbone to step foward and confront the truth.

PM me and I can give you the names of some of my friends in TC who will better be able to explain just who I am and why I have taken this position.

Anyhow its a pleasure to communicate with you and hopefully we can make this a better world in which to work.

So don't worry about not being able to freely speak out as , I am very well aware of the limitations that you are wise to abide by.

Chuck E.


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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.


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