I agree 100%.
all I was saying is that there is major concerns in this industry that need to be looked at and I get shit on, saying prove-it.
Stop the Insanity
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
Well said FOD.
One of the problems below the major air carriers is that line pilots are much more expendable. If you make a fuss, there are 100 people willing to take your job and keep their mouth shut. So when pilots become a hastle for an employer, the quickest, cheapest way to fix the issue is to find another 'go-to' pilot looking to build time.
Now of course the cost of an accident is far far greater, but may small operators will risk having obedient pilots vs the increased cost of maintenance, training and high-time crew. They truely believe or hope there won't be an accident, otherwise their mastermind, bottom-dollar business model falls apart.
In the race to the bottom, everyone looses.
RJ
One of the problems below the major air carriers is that line pilots are much more expendable. If you make a fuss, there are 100 people willing to take your job and keep their mouth shut. So when pilots become a hastle for an employer, the quickest, cheapest way to fix the issue is to find another 'go-to' pilot looking to build time.
Now of course the cost of an accident is far far greater, but may small operators will risk having obedient pilots vs the increased cost of maintenance, training and high-time crew. They truely believe or hope there won't be an accident, otherwise their mastermind, bottom-dollar business model falls apart.
In the race to the bottom, everyone looses.
RJ
One thing that could be done quite easily is for ALL chief pilots to publically say that they will not hire anyone from companies like Regency and it's other Bastardized offspring.(i'm in BC)
This would have the effect of making new pilots think twice about Paying for a PPC and flying-for-free for a company that is a profitable venture for it's owners. What pilot would pay, and make no money if the industry as a whole blackballed their "hours" of volunteer time? SORRY YOU WORKED FOR REGENCY would be a great start to any interview!
"Regency" like companies would have to either pay more or risk not having pilots. They would have to CHARGE more for freight (thus telling the "bag runs" that the sevice is worth more) and more companies that pay wages, benefits, and holiday time could prosper from it.
Think to yourself " if regency wasn't in operation, would all of their freight go by truck? i don't think so"
So CP's in the future stop hiring the bottom feeders of the industry just because they have 'time', and watch your own company profit from the downfall of the crappy operator!
This would have the effect of making new pilots think twice about Paying for a PPC and flying-for-free for a company that is a profitable venture for it's owners. What pilot would pay, and make no money if the industry as a whole blackballed their "hours" of volunteer time? SORRY YOU WORKED FOR REGENCY would be a great start to any interview!
"Regency" like companies would have to either pay more or risk not having pilots. They would have to CHARGE more for freight (thus telling the "bag runs" that the sevice is worth more) and more companies that pay wages, benefits, and holiday time could prosper from it.
Think to yourself " if regency wasn't in operation, would all of their freight go by truck? i don't think so"
So CP's in the future stop hiring the bottom feeders of the industry just because they have 'time', and watch your own company profit from the downfall of the crappy operator!
I think an association of some sort would be great for pilots.Jeremy wrote:If you make a fuss, there are 100 people willing to take your job and keep their mouth shut.
The only way to fix many of the problems that have plagued the industry historically is to choke off the supply of pilots. Get some realistic standards in place so that not everyone with access to $40k can get the licences.
It is incredibly damaging to the profession as a whole when employers are able to have qualified people sweeping floors and vacuuming aircraft. It reduces a low-time pilot's value to dime-a-dozen status. We don't have doctors in this country performing orderly duties, or working in the hospital cafeteria (unless they've immigrated from elsewhere and aren't recognized, but that's a different issue). Why? Because they are highly screened and only those with the appropriate potential make it through.
A Pilot Guild of sorts. Sounds good, although easier said than done.
Until the oversupply issue is addressed in a meaningful way, nothing will change.
Well, I have done a lot of thinking on ways of bringing more sanity, and professionalism back to our industry. Short of finding all people who say they want to learn to fly and breaking there legs, I think there would be 2 ways to go about it… but it certainly would not be easy. They are…
1)Create a pilot association much like that of the medical field and lobby government to make it law that all commercial pilots working or not WOULD be a part of this association, having a code of conduct which must be followed, ie. Not working for free, not flying unsafe aircraft etc… and give the association the power to suspend licenses.
2)Like the first create the association and then lobby government to turn over commercial and ATPL licensing to the association. In fact be the issuer of the license following transport Canada’s rules and regulations, but adding in a layer of professional and ethical conduct, if you have the power to issue licenses then you have the power to revoke and suspend.
I think either option would be hard to get into place, but would be the best option. I think the best selling point for each would be that safety and the adherence to transport Canada regulations would improve drastically over night. The second option has the argument that it would safe the government money. These are just things I have come up with… I would love to here other people’s opinions on this and if anyone knows were one would even start to get the ball rolling.
And last I do want to say that there are a lot of employers out there that play by the rules and have safe work environments. I think the ones that play by the rules deserve a lot of credit in an industry were all your neighbors are cutting corners. I am happy to say I work for one of the better ones and give them a lot of credit for it.
1)Create a pilot association much like that of the medical field and lobby government to make it law that all commercial pilots working or not WOULD be a part of this association, having a code of conduct which must be followed, ie. Not working for free, not flying unsafe aircraft etc… and give the association the power to suspend licenses.
2)Like the first create the association and then lobby government to turn over commercial and ATPL licensing to the association. In fact be the issuer of the license following transport Canada’s rules and regulations, but adding in a layer of professional and ethical conduct, if you have the power to issue licenses then you have the power to revoke and suspend.
I think either option would be hard to get into place, but would be the best option. I think the best selling point for each would be that safety and the adherence to transport Canada regulations would improve drastically over night. The second option has the argument that it would safe the government money. These are just things I have come up with… I would love to here other people’s opinions on this and if anyone knows were one would even start to get the ball rolling.
And last I do want to say that there are a lot of employers out there that play by the rules and have safe work environments. I think the ones that play by the rules deserve a lot of credit in an industry were all your neighbors are cutting corners. I am happy to say I work for one of the better ones and give them a lot of credit for it.
These are all good ideas, but if anyone tried to seriously impliment them the industry would fight you tooth and nail... you'd be rocking too many applecarts.
Lobby groups like ATAC that represent the flying schools and owners/management in the industry would make things very difficult for you. You'd probably get blacklisted and you'd never work in the industry again.
Sad but true.
Lobby groups like ATAC that represent the flying schools and owners/management in the industry would make things very difficult for you. You'd probably get blacklisted and you'd never work in the industry again.
Sad but true.
Cappy, the problem is you singled out ONE company at a very inappropriate time. THAT is why you got shat on.Capt wrote:I agree 100%.
all I was saying is that there is major concerns in this industry that need to be looked at and I get shit on, saying prove-it.
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
" Lobby groups like ATAC that represent the flying schools and owners/management in the industry would make things very difficult for you. You'd probably get blacklisted and you'd never work in the industry again.
Sad but true. "
classiv, seems you actually understand how the system works, congradulations.
Cat
Sad but true. "
classiv, seems you actually understand how the system works, congradulations.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Guido wrote:http://www.caap-apac.ca
what he said. No one is willing to contribute collectively...and no one
wants to see it shut down either. so now what do we do?
FOD Wrote:
FOD, you make very good initial points here, however, even yourThe way I see it, the problem with aviation below the Major Air
Carriers level is that there is absolutely not representation for the
employees, and there is no ability to lobby the federal government on
our behalf. Perhaps like the other professional groups in this country
we need something like a 'College of Professional Pilots' for qualified
employed pilots in Canada.
Well, that is all i have to say.
FOD
innocent ignorance of an already existing movement created for this sole
purpose of giving those under 705 ops a voice to Ottawa and address
concerns as a collective group, has escaped even your attention.
How is this 'organized movement' going to happen when everyone gets
distracted every time they see a flashing light or a floating baloon?
We have the attention span of a a house fly.
Sorry, what was that? I was looking at the pretty Christmas lights at the bottom of your post! 
Really, the problem as I see it is there are so few pilots out there, especially at the lower levels, who know ANYTHING about this industry, or business/economics in general beyond their own cockpits (even then
sometimes) that they are incredibly ill suited to negotiate on their own behalf. They are unwilling to accept any amount of blame for finding themselves in the situation they are, and are far too willing to place the blame at the filthy rich owners, or the flight schools who are selling an unrealistic dream.
Good Luck.
Really, the problem as I see it is there are so few pilots out there, especially at the lower levels, who know ANYTHING about this industry, or business/economics in general beyond their own cockpits (even then
sometimes) that they are incredibly ill suited to negotiate on their own behalf. They are unwilling to accept any amount of blame for finding themselves in the situation they are, and are far too willing to place the blame at the filthy rich owners, or the flight schools who are selling an unrealistic dream.Good Luck.
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
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Navajo-dude
- Rank 3
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:55 pm
