Help with buying a used plane

[dextronomos]

Hello all!

I am new to this Forum.

I am looking at purchasing a used single-engine piston 6 seater for cross country missions. Do you have any tips on how to go about this process? I've heard about "Aviation consultant"s who can help with this? Is that right?

[digits_]

What would you like to know?

There are many people out there who would be willing to help you for a fee, but if you need those services, I'd reconsider buying your own airplane.

Generally the process goes as follows:
1) You see a plane you like
2) You negotiate with seller
3) You put some kind of agreement on paper
4) You arrange for a pre purchase inspection to be performed
5) If happy, you arrange insurance (note, this might require a checkout on the airplane or airplane type)
6) You pay the seller
7) You send the paperwork to transport
You, or someone you hire picks up the airplane and flies it to you

[PilotDAR]

4) You perform a pre purchase inspection

, if you're an experienced AME, sure, otherwise, look for an AME who will do it for a fee. This will be money very well spent, whether you buy or decide no to.

One more point to Digit's list, make your plane for tiedown or hangarage...

My other advice is to consider your budget in total. Then, buy a plane not exceeding 2/3 of that amount, so you have some reserve and operating funds already set aside. I know too many people who spent the lot on the plane, then could not afford to even park it, much less operate it....

[photofly]

a used single-engine piston 6 seater for cross country missions

Not that many six-seater piston single models:

Cherokee 6
Cessna 185
Cessna 206
Piper Malibu
Beechcraft Bonanza

Anyone think of more?

[digits_]

4) You perform a pre purchase inspection

, if you're an experienced AME, sure, otherwise, look for an AME who will do it for a fee. This will be money very well spent, whether you buy or decide no to.

Ah, yes, I was not implying or recommending to do your own pre purchase inspection. I'll modify that item on the list.

[linecrew]

a used single-engine piston 6 seater for cross country missions

Not that many six-seater piston single models:

Cherokee 6
Cessna 185
Cessna 206
Piper Malibu
Beechcraft Bonanza

Anyone think of more?

Saratoga and Lance

[rookiepilot]

I'd add:

See plane you like.
Review history and logs yourself.
Negotiation
Get someone experienced -- AME -- to review logs in depth, (will cost a few $$$) before paying for a per purchase inspection (more $$$$, of course both can be covered off in negotiations)

Start with logs.....

[sunk]

Figure out your mission, that’ll help you narrow down the choices for a six seater. Best bang for your money is a Cherokee six.

[Bede]

Lots of info on this forum on buying a plane.

My advice (gleaned from others):
1) Have pre-purchase inspection done by an AME that hasn't looked at the plane before but is experienced with the type. If the plane is warranted free of snags, and findings should be paid by the seller.
2) Have a good contract of sale. This should be similar to a house sale. What's included, what's not, defects, etc. The contract of sale is different than the bill of sale.
3) Buy the best aircraft of the type, not the cheapest of the largest aircraft you can afford. The best aircraft always hold their value and won't cost you as much for maintenance. For example, a C172 worth $30k may cost you $5k-$10k per year in maintenance for the first few years. At the end, it's still a $35k airplane. By contrast a $100k C172 will cost you $2k year in maintenance and will still be worth $100k in a few years. If you can't afford the best airplane of the type, go for a cheaper/smaller type.
4) Beware the "low-time" plane! The 1975 1000 hour airplane has every part that's 45 years old. Once you start flying that plane regularly, the parts break. The 10,000 hour "trainer" has had most components replaced within the last 5-10 years.
5) I hate saying this, but "owned by AME" is not a selling feature IMO. The vast majority of AME's I've known are true professionals who take care of their equipment, but I've seen 2 "owned by AME" aircraft that were junk. The owners sold their plane because they knew that the defects would soon become apparent and expensive to fix. The first case was a cracked wing spar in a Citabria (this one still infuriates me because I took my family in this plane and the AME covered the crack in the spar with fabric so the buyer wouldn't see it), the other a Grumman Cheetah with so much corrosion that the plane had to be parted out and the aluminum sold at scrap value. No kidding. The latter ended in a lawsuit against the seller/AME, the former should have, but the buyer is too nice of a guy.
6) Logbooks - look for well documented log books with snags and rectifications. The logbook with only 1 maintenance entry per year and no defects is a definite no-go.

[Bede]

Sample Aircraft Purchase Agreement (also known as the Contract of Sale)

AIRCRAFT PURCHASE AGREEMENT

AN AGREEMENT, made and executed this ______ day of ____________, by and between:

____________________________
(hereinafter "Buyer")

-and-

___________________________
(hereafter "Seller").
WITNESSETH: In consideration of $______________, and other good and valuable considerations, the receipt of which is hereby acknowledged, the Parties hereby mutually agree as follows, to wit:

1. Seller agrees to sell to Buyer and Buyer agrees to purchase from Seller the following Aircraft:
Aircraft Make ___________________________
Aircraft Model ___________________________
Aircraft Year ___________________________
Aircraft Registration Number _______________
Aircraft Serial Number _______________
Aircraft shall be equipped as follows: ________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________

Seller warrants that the damage history to the aircraft is as follows:
_______________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________
Seller also warrants that the aircraft logbooks are complete and begin with the date of manufacture of the aircraft to the present or alternatively the logbooks are incomplete and begin on ______________ and end on ________________.

Seller warrants that Seller owns legal title to the above Aircraft and that title will be assigned to Buyer free and clears of any liens, claims, or encumbrances. Seller acknowledges that presently this airplane is (is not) encumbered to ______________________________. Upon delivery of the Aircraft and payment of the balance of the purchase price in accordance with this Agreement, Seller shall execute a bill of sale granting good and marketable title to said Aircraft free and clear of all claims and encumbrances.

2. It is agreed that the purchase price of the Aircraft is __________________________
($_____________) which sum is due in accordance with Appendix A, attached hereto. Any money paid pursuant to this Agreement shall be paid by cash, cashier's check, certified checks, wire transfer, or as expressly agreed to by both parties.

3. Upon acceptance of this Agreement by the Seller, the Buyer shall pay a deposit of ____________________ Dollars ($_____________) in to an escrow account immediately upon the establishment of the escrow. The deposit is non-refundable , except for a failure of pre-purchase inspection, failure of the title search, or unless otherwise stipulated in this Agreement. The deposit shall be credited to the purchase price of the Aircraft.

4. Subsequent to the execution of this Agreement and the payment of the earnest money deposit into escrow, the Buyer shall have the right to perform a pre-purchase inspection (“Inspection”) upon the Aircraft. The Inspection mechanic shall be the Buyer's exclusive decision. The Inspection will be according to the recommended maintenance schedule of the aircraft in accordance with the aircraft and engine service or maintenance manual and generally accepted techniques and practices. The Inspection shall be performed at ____________________________ Airport.

As part of the Inspection, the Seller shall allow the Buyer to conduct a test flight. The Buyer is responsible for all fuel costs.

If the Buyer does not have the pre-purchase inspection performed within _____________ (_______) days after the execution of this Agreement, Buyer shall have waived his right to such inspection.

Upon completion of the Inspection and a failure of the Inspection, in the sole and exclusive discretion of Buyer, the Buyer shall have ___________ (____) days to notify Seller that Buyer will not purchase the Aircraft. If Buyer elects not to purchase the Aircraft, the Buyer shall notify Seller of this decision. Upon receipt of the notice of rejection, Seller shall immediately return all payments made by Buyer.

Upon completion of the Inspection, Buyer shall present to the Seller any list of discrepancies. The Seller shall have ___________________ (_______) business days to review the discrepancies and to notify the Buyer of Seller's decision: (a) to pay to have the discrepancies repaired at Seller's expense and to complete the sale; or (b) to decline to pay the costs of repairs and to terminate the Agreement. If Seller declines to pay the cost of repairs, Seller shall refund, or have refunded, the Buyer's deposit and shall reimburse the Buyer for the cost of the pre-purchase inspection.

5. It is agreed that the Aircraft and its logbooks shall be delivered on ______________(date) at _______________________Airport.

Title and risk of loss or damage to the Aircraft shall pass to Buyer at the moment of delivery. The Aircraft will be delivered to Buyer in its present condition, with a valid Certificate of Airworthiness.

Seller warrants that: (a) the Aircraft is in airworthy condition; (b) the Aircraft has a current annual inspection; (c) the Aircraft has a currently effective air worthiness certificate issued by Transport Canada; (d) all of the Aircraft's logbooks are accurate and current; (e) all applicable Airworthiness Directives have been complied with; (f) __________________________.

6. If the Aircraft is destroyed, or in Seller's opinion damaged beyond repair, Seller shall notify Buyer immediately and this Agreement shall be terminated and the Seller shall return all payments to Buyer and Seller will be relieved of any obligation to replace or repair the Aircraft. Seller will not be responsible or deemed to be in default for delays in performance of the Agreement due to reasonable causes beyond Seller's control.

7. If, for any reason, the Buyer is unable to pay the price of the Aircraft, as specified in this Agreement, the Seller shall return all documents to the Buyer except for the deposit which shall be retained as liquidated damages.

8. The Buyer shall pay any sales or use tax imposed by any state or local government, which results from the sale of the Aircraft.

9. All notices and requests required or authorized pursuant to this Agreement shall be in writing by certified mail, return receipt requested.

10. This Agreement is a contract executed pursuant to the laws of the Province of Ontario.

11. In the event any action is filed in relation to this Agreement, each party shall be responsible for his own lawyer's fees.

12. This Agreement constitutes the entire Agreement between the parties. No statements, promises, or inducements made by any party to this Agreement or any agent or any agent or employees of either party, which are not contained in this written contract shall be valid or binding. This Agreement may not be enlarged, modified, or altered unless in writing signed by the parties.
13. This Agreement contains five (5) pages (including this page) plus appendices as stated within this agreement . The Seller and the Buyer acknowledge they have read and understand all terms of this Agreement.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties hereto have executed this Agreement the date and year first above written.
________________________ _______________________
Seller Buyer

________________________ ________________________
Witness Signature Witness Signature

________________________ ________________________
Witness Name Witness Name


 
APPENDIX A
PAYMENT SCHEDULE

Upon delivery of the Aircraft $5000
Monthly, until balance is paid in full $700

[PilotDAR]

Best bang for your money is a Cherokee six

If you're confident that the spar is in good condition (it's an invasive inspection), and you're confident about Piper product support. I'd do homework before selecting an older low wing Piper. Not that they're not good planes, but like some other types these days, age is catching up with them, and parts are not as easily obtained.

That said, I've been flying for more than 40 years, and married for more than 20. My wife and I have four great kids. I've had access to six seat planes over the years, and have never carried all of my family at once. They've all come for great trips with me over the years, but the only times we've been all together in a plane was on an airliner. Consider your common mission, do you really need to carry six people that often? Do you want that much responsibility? Some pilots do. I would rather not.... Do you want the carrying and operating cost of a six seat plane which flies empty seats a lot? For that twice a year trip, the airfare may be less costly....

[Bede]

Sample Bill of Sale (this is what you send in to TC. It establishes title to the aircraft.)

AIRCRAFT BILL OF SALE

This is to certify that Seller:

C.E. Hollingsworth Insurance Brokers Ltd.
1244-A Victoria Street North
Kitchener, ON N2B 3C9

has this day sold, assigned and transferred all rights, title and interest in the aircraft described as:

Aircraft Make: Cessna
Aircraft Model: 150M
Aircraft Year: 1975
Aircraft Registration Number C-XXXX
Aircraft Serial Number XXXX

unto Buyer:



For the sum of one dollar ($1.00) and other valuable consideration, receipt of which is hereby acknowledged. I covenant that I am the lawful owner of the above described aircraft.
Dated at Kitchener, ON this _______ day of September, 2017.

____________________________ ____________________________
For the Seller Witness

____________________________ ____________________________
Seller Name Witness Name

[Bede]

Anyone think of more?

Hands down Cessna 210 (newer). 6 people, full fuel.

[scdriver]

a used single-engine piston 6 seater for cross country missions

Not that many six-seater piston single models:

Cherokee 6
Cessna 185
Cessna 206
Piper Malibu
Beechcraft Bonanza

Anyone think of more?

Beaver. With how much a 206 could cost (upwards of $300K) you’re looking at a similar cost for the -2. Maintenance would differ a bit obviously but operating costs aren’t wildly different from what I’ve heard from people that operate 206s

[sunk]

Pilot DAR......that is why you get a good pre buy done as you well know. Make sure the spar is in good shape as well as the rest of the airplane.

[PilotDAR]

Make sure the spar is in good shape as well as the rest of the airplane

Yes, inspection of the spar bolt holes to comply with the AD is one thing, a spar in "investment worthy" condition is another. If I were considering the purchase of a Cherokee series plane, AD compliance would be a part of my decision about the condition of the spar, but not all of the information I required to make my purchase decision. And my comment is not a slight against Piper low wings, many Cessnas have some pretty important AD structural inspections required (I'm working the 182 wing strut bulkhead cracks project right now). While being asked to approve the repair kit, I've now come across several 182's which actually have the cracks which need the repair kit.

These are all fine airplanes, when in truly good condition. But, as they age, and the manufacturers demonstrate less interest in keeping them economical to own, purchasers must ramp up their knowledge of what to insist the PPI look for, and be prepared to either walk away or invest more to bring the plane up to "investment grade".

Elsewhere we had the discussion that the owner (or in the case of a PPI, the prospective buyer) should define the standard to which the inspection is accomplished. Having the AME tell you that AD's have been complied with is a part of the answer, but if you're about to invest $100k, you may want to ask bigger questions, and pay for a deeper inspection.

When Cessna, Piper et al made these fine, and economical airplanes back in the day, they hardly thought we'd still be thinking to fly them as economical planes in this era. Some necessary inspections were not thought out well, nor defined, they weren't thinking aging aircraft. Some inspection access was not planned well, some not at all! Cessna has caught up pretty well with the SID inspections, and AD's define others. Doing the inspection is one thing, finding a defect is another.

Make sure that the plane you plan to invest in, is not only free of defects, but in such good condition that it will probably remain so for some time... (or such a deal, you'll pay to have it made right). 'Nothing wrong with that, if you go in understanding the costs. PPI's are getting more important. An AME very familiar on the type can probably tell you what the scope of the inspection should be. But, the buyer should have an idea of what the PPI should include and why. These days, I think $1k for a good PPI on a six place would be a little cheap for the inspection it should really have...

[sunk]

Totally agree, we spent over 5,000 grand on a beaver pre buy including flying out contact ame out to do it. It was a 3 day event in the shop pouring over the logs, verifying the work was actually done to our liking. It was money well spent.

[photofly]

How is it in the seller’s interest to allow a potential purchaser freely to dismantle (and therefore conduct maintenance) on their airplane merely to look for reasons to negotiate a lower price or walk away from the sale?

Spend as much time on the logs and inspecting the general condition of my airplane, but why should I let you put a wrench on it?

[tca]

Totally agree, we spent over 5,000 grand on a beaver pre buy including flying out contact ame out to do it. It was a 3 day event in the shop pouring over the logs, verifying the work was actually done to our liking. It was money well spent.

Wow! I’d have thought you could buy 10 DHC2s for that kind of money!

[rookiepilot]

How is it in the seller’s interest to allow a potential purchaser freely to dismantle (and therefore conduct maintenance) on their airplane merely to look for reasons to negotiate a lower price or walk away from the sale?

Spend as much time on the logs and inspecting the general condition of my airplane, but why should I let you put a wrench on it?

Back in the old days, people used to make buying a house conditional on an inspection, too.
How quaint.

[PilotDAR]

How is it in the seller’s interest to allow a potential purchaser freely to dismantle (and therefore conduct maintenance) on their airplane merely to look for reasons to negotiate a lower price or walk away from the sale?

The seller has in interest in selling the plane. A purchaser may do as indepth an inspection as the seller agrees to.

On the other hand, I have bought a plane unseen, until I flew it home, and another as is where is. The sale prices were commensurate to what I knew about the condition of the plane in each case.... However, in both cases, the plane was being purchased for a complete teardown and rebuild anyway, so I was not so concerned about the condition beyond simply being safe for a ferry flight.

A new buyer should probably exercise a lot more pre purchase caution/awareness of condition than that, unless their goal too, is a teardown and rebuild anyway.

The last plane I sold was out of annual when the potential buyer came to look at it. The agreement we reached was that his AME would inspect it, I would rectify any snags he found, to the extent that he was happy to sign out the annual inspection. He would sign out the inspection at his expense, and I would deliver it and complete the sale. I had some snags to fix, and completed a sale for the agreed price. Two day inspection, two days of my fixing snags and a couple of cosmetic things we agreed. I thought the AME was very fair to both of us.

[digits_]

How is it in the seller’s interest to allow a potential purchaser freely to dismantle (and therefore conduct maintenance) on their airplane merely to look for reasons to negotiate a lower price or walk away from the sale?

Spend as much time on the logs and inspecting the general condition of my airplane, but why should I let you put a wrench on it?

Because the actual important areas are only visible after removing panels or spark plugs.

If you price your airplane with a 20 year old engine as one with a mid time engine, then I want to make sure as much as possible there is no corrosion in the engine.

Nothing's guaranteed but I'm not going to bet you 100k that you can be trusted.

I'd wager that allowing a thorough prebuy will generally result in a higher sale price and a quicker sale.

[photofly]

I'd wager that allowing a thorough prebuy will generally result in a higher sale price and a quicker sale.

Only if the prebuy shows no defects.

It's a roll of the dice. (Trivially: If the outcome was certain there'd be no point in doing an inspection.)

If the dice come up one way, the sale goes through. If the dice come up the other way, the sale fails, and the vendor is left with a known defective airplane. It depends on a balance of many things like how eager the seller is, how eager the buyer is, whether there are a lot of airplanes of a like type on the market, and so on.

An acquaintance sold his fixed-gear Cardinal a few years ago; the pre-purchase inspection he permitted came up with "too much play in the wing spar". By the time he'd sourced a new carry through, he'd spent more than half the sale value of the aircraft. He rolled the dice, and lost.

At the moment there are very few small piston singles available on the market at a sensible price. Were I selling right now, I'd decline to allow an invasive inspection of my airframe. As far as I know, there are no defects with the airframe. If that's not good enough, there will be another buyer along in a minute. That might be different if there were a glut of aircraft, few purchasers, and I needed to sell quickly.

[PilotDAR]

As far as I know, there are no defects with the airframe.

May be quite true, but it is also a matter of how well you or your AME last looked, and what you were looking for. Right now I'm dealing with several 182's with bulkhead cracks exactly where the Service Letter and AD say to look for them. The Cessna Service Letter which describes how to look for them has been out for 16 years, so it's not new, but seemingly suddenly this is a defect found in a number of 182's. Maybe just no one really looked before... It will affect the value of the plane by around $10,000. It's worth the inspection to know...

'Just an example, every type has it's "thing"....

[photofly]

It will affect the value of the plane by around $10,000. It's worth the inspection to know...

If I'm selling, and not flying the airplane, then I don't think it's worth the inspection to know. I don't want to know!