Canadian Pilots Are Too Afraid to Stand Up for Better Pay

[canadian_aviator_4]

Why are we such cowards? I mean someone on this forum proposes to go abroad for better pay, or insists that conditions are bad here, and you have another person say that going abroad is horrible and so difficult. Yes, sure, but if it it wasn’t difficult would it be worth it? Same goes for pay. However, us as Canadian pilots seems to afraid to stand up for better work conditions.
We step all over each other, and hope the next guy to us falls so we can take their place.
What a toxic environment.
Take a moment, and look to see when your next union meeting is, or vote, and actively participate.
Ask difficult questions, challenge you mec, and if they cannot respond maybe it’s time for a change in leadership. I know at Jazz, I have begun to think this way.
Air Canada pilots made this clear with their no vote, so now let’s see everyone else vote no and get rid of those voices that oppose unity and change.

[PostmasterGeneral]

We need a 1500 hour rule.

[JHR]

We also need all airline pilots to say no to voluntary overtime

[RoAF-Mig21]

We also need all airline pilots to say no to voluntary overtime

Although, in principle, I agree with your sentiment, that's a very juvenile comment to make. I'm sure you know the reality of Canada's economy and its absurd cost of living.

Some people need that overtime to pay their mortgage and feed their kids. It's easy to say, if you make $150K a year, "No I don't need that extra $1000 a month", but $500 a month extra (from overtime) for a First Officer making $65K a year (before tax) is food for him and his family for 2 weeks (if you plan it properly). Or it's 5 extra tanks of gas, so you can commute to your home base... because you can't afford an apartment there.

Come on, that's not the solution: "not doing overtime". It's like me saying "The pilots making $150K a year should give $30K a year to their junior colleagues. That's also not a realistic scenario.

I don't know what is, but WHAT I DO KNOW, is that I pay a f*ckload of money to my union and they're the ones that "know and fight" for me. Hopefully they can make a positive change.

[RoAF-Mig21]

We need a 1500 hour rule.

Yup! Plenty of places in Canada where one can get experience and get that 1500 hrs. It'll be better for everyone, except the 22 year old college graduate wanting to fly an Embraer with 200 hrs.

[goingmissed]

We also need all airline pilots to say no to voluntary overtime

Although, in principle, I agree with your sentiment, that's a very juvenile comment to make. I'm sure you know the reality of Canada's economy and its absurd cost of living.

Some people need that overtime to pay their mortgage and feed their kids. It's easy to say, if you make $150K a year, "No I don't need that extra $1000 a month", but $500 a month extra (from overtime) for a First Officer making $65K a year (before tax) is food for him and his family for 2 weeks (if you plan it properly). Or it's 5 extra tanks of gas, so you can commute to your home base... because you can't afford an apartment there.

Come on, that's not the solution: "not doing overtime". It's like me saying "The pilots making $150K a year should give $30K a year to their junior colleagues. That's also not a realistic scenario.

I don't know what is, but WHAT I DO KNOW, is that I pay a f*ckload of money to my union and they're the ones that "know and fight" for me. Hopefully they can make a positive change.

$65K for a first officer? I'm at the wrong airline!

[RoAF-Mig21]

$65K for a first officer? I'm at the wrong airline!

I didn't say "first year pay"... or "new hire".

[goingmissed]

$65K for a first officer? I'm at the wrong airline!

I didn't say "first year pay"... or "new hire".

Top level FO pay at Encore is $53,600 base pay.That's around $37,000 take home. Jazz is $77,961, but only $55,300 at the same year as Encore tops out.

It's fucked.

[FL030]

Some people need that overtime to pay their mortgage and feed their kids. It's easy to say, if you make $150K a year, "No I don't need that extra $1000 a month", but $500 a month extra (from overtime) for a First Officer making $65K a year (before tax) is food for him and his family for 2 weeks (if you plan it properly). Or it's 5 extra tanks of gas, so you can commute to your home base... because you can't afford an apartment there.

If you stop doing overtime for a short period you can get that increase in pay, and then some, permanently without even having to do overtime.

[JHR]

Some people need that overtime to pay their mortgage and feed their kids. It's easy to say, if you make $150K a year, "No I don't need that extra $1000 a month", but $500 a month extra (from overtime) for a First Officer making $65K a year (before tax) is food for him and his family for 2 weeks (if you plan it properly). Or it's 5 extra tanks of gas, so you can commute to your home base... because you can't afford an apartment there.

If you stop doing overtime for a short period you can get that increase in pay, and then some, permanently without even having to do overtime.

Exactly

[RoAF-Mig21]

Some people need that overtime to pay their mortgage and feed their kids. It's easy to say, if you make $150K a year, "No I don't need that extra $1000 a month", but $500 a month extra (from overtime) for a First Officer making $65K a year (before tax) is food for him and his family for 2 weeks (if you plan it properly). Or it's 5 extra tanks of gas, so you can commute to your home base... because you can't afford an apartment there.

If you stop doing overtime for a short period you can get that increase in pay, and then some, permanently without even having to do overtime.

No, that sounds great. I agree. In the meantime...

Who will supplement that income to pay for groceries? Can you guarantee that those F/Os living paycheck to paycheck will get an increase in pay? What the f*ck man? Are we intelligent adults here or children "pretend playing"?

What universe do you live in? $600 a month can make the difference between being able to feed your family (and pay all the bills on time)... or not. Things are that dire for some people.

Look, I've done a total of 2 days of overtime in the last 12 months. That's just because I wanted to and wanted a layover in a specific place to go see some museums. It was a great layover. Most people are not as fortunate as I am (having a spouse that actually makes a lot more money than I do). I know F/Os at my company that are the sole breadwinners in the family and working overtime is the only way they can make it work.

[JHR]

So make a lasting difference. Short term pain

[RoAF-Mig21]

So make a lasting difference. Short term pain

You sound like a 25 year old living in his mom's basement, who doesn't have to pay rent or mortgage. Do you understand that "Short term pain" is not an option for many families? What "short term pain?" Your kids not eating? Your kids not having shoes? Your kids not going on that field trip? Being late on that credit card payment because your cost of commuting doubled in the last 12 months?

That's the reality of Canadian families in 2022. People struggle to get by, whether they're pilots, working at a small tech company or just your average "Joe".

[Mach1]

Why are we such cowards? I mean someone on this forum proposes to go abroad for better pay, or insists that conditions are bad here, and you have another person say that going abroad is horrible and so difficult. Yes, sure, but if it it wasn’t difficult would it be worth it? Same goes for pay. However, us as Canadian pilots seems to afraid to stand up for better work conditions.
We step all over each other, and hope the next guy to us falls so we can take their place.
What a toxic environment.
Take a moment, and look to see when your next union meeting is, or vote, and actively participate.
Ask difficult questions, challenge you mec, and if they cannot respond maybe it’s time for a change in leadership. I know at Jazz, I have begun to think this way.
Air Canada pilots made this clear with their no vote, so now let’s see everyone else vote no and get rid of those voices that oppose unity and change.

Because the governments of Canada have a very long history of interfering with the free market economy (IE: Suddenly, everyone is an essential worker and gets legislated back to work), and if you actually protest (well, protest something the government disagrees with), they enact draconian laws to stop that protest.

At the end of the day, people are running on an economic treadmill set (very purposefully) at the maximum speed anyone can run so that you stay just ahead of your payments (the back to the treadmill, where you fall off and start losing your house, car, etc) but you can't move forward (reach the front of the treadmill) where you can create wealth and give yourself a little breathing room. This means you don't have the freedom to bang on the desk and demand better or go on strike without the risk of losing everything... so we sit there and try not to rock the boat or get noticed because none of us have FU money. Having FU money gives you the power you need to demand more, demand better and the resources you need to get better. This is not just an aviation issue, it's almost every job in Canada.

It's a really interesting balance. A person with nothing to lose has no fear and will openly revolt against the system because... what can you take from this person who has nothing? A person with wealth can walk out the door if not given what they negotiate for without fear of starving or losing their homes. But... balance it just right... where you have a little bit of comfort, enough that you have something to lose but not enough to be comfortable and you have people who live in fear of losing what they have but not enough to have power. And you have to keep them right there... in the sweet spot.

In summary, it is slavery 2.0. Only, they aren't housing you, they aren't feeding you, they aren't caring for your medical needs, that is all on you... meanwhile we sit in fear of losing what little we have in order to fight to make it better, so we do nothing.

[JHR]

Nope. My kids live in my basement. I refused the shit Airline wages in this country
And it's funny how you accuse me of living off my parents while you are a kept man. You are part of the problem.

[rookiepilot]

Why are we such cowards? I mean someone on this forum proposes to go abroad for better pay, or insists that conditions are bad here, and you have another person say that going abroad is horrible and so difficult. Yes, sure, but if it it wasn’t difficult would it be worth it? Same goes for pay. However, us as Canadian pilots seems to afraid to stand up for better work conditions.
We step all over each other, and hope the next guy to us falls so we can take their place.
What a toxic environment.
Take a moment, and look to see when your next union meeting is, or vote, and actively participate.
Ask difficult questions, challenge you mec, and if they cannot respond maybe it’s time for a change in leadership. I know at Jazz, I have begun to think this way.
Air Canada pilots made this clear with their no vote, so now let’s see everyone else vote no and get rid of those voices that oppose unity and change.

Because the governments of Canada have a very long history of interfering with the free market economy (IE: Suddenly, everyone is an essential worker and gets legislated back to work), and if you actually protest (well, protest something the government disagrees with), they enact draconian laws to stop that protest.

At the end of the day, people are running on an economic treadmill set (very purposefully) at the maximum speed anyone can run so that you stay just ahead of your payments (the back to the treadmill, where you fall off and start losing your house, car, etc) but you can't move forward (reach the front of the treadmill) where you can create wealth and give yourself a little breathing room. This means you don't have the freedom to bang on the desk and demand better or go on strike without the risk of losing everything... so we sit there and try not to rock the boat or get noticed because none of us have FU money. Having FU money gives you the power you need to demand more, demand better and the resources you need to get better. This is not just an aviation issue, it's almost every job in Canada.

It's a really interesting balance. A person with nothing to lose has no fear and will openly revolt against the system because... what can you take from this person who has nothing? A person with wealth can walk out the door if not given what they negotiate for without fear of starving or losing their homes. But... balance it just right... where you have a little bit of comfort, enough that you have something to lose but not enough to be comfortable and you have people who live in fear of losing what they have but not enough to have power. And you have to keep them right there... in the sweet spot.

In summary, it is slavery 2.0. Only, they aren't housing you, they aren't feeding you, they aren't caring for your medical needs, that is all on you... meanwhile we sit in fear of losing what little we have in order to fight to make it better, so we do nothing.

This is well said. Keeping you all perpetually in debt is part of the plan.

When I write on financial principles to attempt to teach how not to get trapped there, I get trolled. No more of that. You can betcha that much.

I am a pilot too, but this has killed my sympathy for these kinds of posts. Collectively you’re an extremely, extremely stupid group. No offense.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Nope. My kids live in my basement. I refused the shit Airline wages in this country
And it's funny how you accuse me of living off my parents while you are a kept man. You are part of the problem.

No man. That's not it. I have a spouse that makes good money and I DON'T HAVE TO WORK OVERTIME. I also seldom work overtime. The only time I pick up a shift is if it's somewhere I want to spend time or bring my family. For example, I want them to see museums in Washington DC.


You and I are both lucky (that we don't need to work extra shifts). What I was saying all along is that there are people that NEED that overtime. And you acting like people taking overtime is "ruining this industry", when in reality they really need to do it is not a realistic way of looking at things

. Not all of us are "kept men"... as you put it.

[BigQ]

Until Canadians aren't a $200 shortfall on their next paycheque away from financial trouble, it won't change. Beggars can't be choosers.

I flew with a guy a few weeks back, new 705 FO, gf is a Rouge FA, 1.2 million dollar house in YUL.
That guy WILL take whatever overtime he can get.

[Ash Ketchum]

I have not picked up the phone once this year when crew sked calls on my days off - straight to voicemail. Instead I am focusing on spending my days off working on finding a flying job outside of Canada or if that fails, working on switching to a career where I am a paid and treated for what I am worth. I have nothing against those working overtime but ultimately I want to work smarter and not harder - work to live and not the other way around.

[rookiepilot]

I flew with a guy a few weeks back, new 705 FO, gf is a Rouge FA, 1.2 million dollar house in YUL.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Until Canadians aren't a $200 shortfall on their next paycheque away from financial trouble, it won't change. Beggars can't be choosers.

I flew with a guy a few weeks back, new 705 FO, gf is a Rouge FA, 1.2 million dollar house in YUL.
That guy WILL take whatever overtime he can get.

There's also that side of the coin: "Living beyond your means".

The formula is pretty simple to calculate, and almost impossible to achieve (Given the high cost of housing in Canada)

Let's assume a couple each makes 50K a year before tax, and 30K a year after tax & other deductions. That's $60K a year take home, combined pay. That's roughly around $5000 a month in their bank account.

1. Canadians shouldn't really pay more than 33% of their income on housing. For the example given above, their budget would be around $1650 per month to spend on housing. Of course, that's not going to cut it in most cities now, even for a small 1-bedroom apartment. The reality is most Canadians families spend around 50% of their take home pay on housing. In this example, it would be around $2500. Even that is peanuts for someone looking to live in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal or Calgary (with the last two being somewhat more affordable)

2. I don't even know what the payment on a $1.2 mil mortgage would be. I'd guess (at 3.5% interest) somewhere around $4000-$5000 a month. That's way out of reach for an F/O and F/A's combined salaries, unless they have some sort of other income (side business / gig) or financial aid (family members, etc)... A 3rd option would be to have had a substantial down payment that would bring their mortgage down.

[Bede]

Some people need that overtime to pay their mortgage and feed their kids. It's easy to say, if you make $150K a year, "No I don't need that extra $1000 a month", but $500 a month extra (from overtime) for a First Officer making $65K a year (before tax) is food for him and his family for 2 weeks (if you plan it properly). Or it's 5 extra tanks of gas, so you can commute to your home base... because you can't afford an apartment there.

If you stop doing overtime for a short period you can get that increase in pay, and then some, permanently without even having to do overtime.

Sorry, that's a pretty sweeping statement. Care to substantiate?

[TalkingPie]

I join those who assert that Canadians pickling themselves in debt is a reason why airlines (and other companies) can get away with jerking workers around the way they do.

A $1.2 million house for a junior pilot and FA in Montreal? You go to work on average 5-6 times a month; buy a house off the island, if you really want one. And even if you insist on being within 15 minutes of the airport, a starter bungalow can be had for around half a million. I live 35 minutes from the airport and have a 2,300 sq ft (plus basement) house with a 2 car garage on a 24,000 sq ft lot. My guess is that today's market value isn't much above $500k (we paid $350k in 2018). Three modest, reliable, comfortable older cars, all paid off. My flight training is paid as I go, cash. Could I get it done much faster if I quit my job and took on debt? Absolutely, but then I'd be too much at the mercy of other people's whims, and I don't like that.

Spouse makes slightly less than I do, and I'm cabin crew, no financial help from the parents, as it should be for adults. Even during my 15 month layoff during the pandemic paying the bills wasn't an issue - not even when a $26,000 bill for roof replacement came due - because we structured our lives that way when times were good. No designer furniture or professional landscaping. If something breaks around the house or on the cars, more often than not, I'll fix it myself. If it's not broken, it's highly unlikely we'll replace it. We cook at home; I go out to eat more than enough on layovers, and truth be told, grilling a steak on my deck without pants on appeals to me more than going to a crowded, expensive restaurant.

Luck is always going to play a role, but when you mire yourself in debt for shit you don't need, saying "no" to things you don't agree with becomes much more difficult. I love money and nice things, but of all the great things that money can buy, freedom is among the most important to me.

As long as employers know that employees can't afford to say no, demanding more is going to be a big uphill battle.

[rookiepilot]

I join those who assert that Canadians pickling themselves in debt is a reason why airlines (and other companies) can get away with jerking workers around the way they do.

A $1.2 million house for a junior pilot and FA in Montreal? You go to work on average 5-6 times a month; buy a house off the island, if you really want one. And even if you insist on being within 15 minutes of the airport, a starter bungalow can be had for around half a million. I live 35 minutes from the airport and have a 2,300 sq ft (plus basement) house with a 2 car garage on a 24,000 sq ft lot. My guess is that today's market value isn't much above $500k (we paid $350k in 2018). Three modest, reliable, comfortable older cars, all paid off. My flight training is paid as I go, cash. Could I get it done much faster if I quit my job and took on debt? Absolutely, but then I'd be too much at the mercy of other people's whims, and I don't like that.

Spouse makes slightly less than I do, and I'm cabin crew, no financial help from the parents, as it should be for adults. Even during my 15 month layoff during the pandemic paying the bills wasn't an issue - not even when a $26,000 bill for roof replacement came due - because we structured our lives that way when times were good. No designer furniture or professional landscaping. If something breaks around the house or on the cars, more often than not, I'll fix it myself. If it's not broken, it's highly unlikely we'll replace it. We cook at home; I go out to eat more than enough on layovers, and truth be told, grilling a steak on my deck without pants on appeals to me more than going to a crowded, expensive restaurant.

Luck is always going to play a role, but when you mire yourself in debt for shit you don't need, saying "no" to things you don't agree with becomes much more difficult. I love money and nice things, but of all the great things that money can buy, freedom is among the most important to me.

As long as employers know that employees can't afford to say no, demanding more is going to be a big uphill battle.

Don’t expect to be popular writing like this. I agree with every word, but its not popular to say it.

Mine?
My first (minimum wage) job was at 15, (delivery of newspapers, shoveled snow from age 10) I paid rent from 18, in my own apartment —moldy basement suite — at 19, paid one year of college then dropped out — couldn’t afford it — zero family help. Everything bought used, everything bought cash.

Started my business across the country at 30 with 25K. No RRSP, no house, pension, one old car. No debt. Kept living cheap. Made some money, eventually, bought a cheap house — cash. Still have it. Everything bought with cash. Only 2 cars bought new, rest used.

After — got my pilots license and ratings. Cash. Instructor quipped once “your lucky”.

Uh —No.

Nobody owns me.

But nobody wants to pay that price.

[averageatbest]

Don’t expect to be popular writing like this. I agree with every word, but its not popular to say it.

Mine?
My first (minimum wage) job was at 15, (delivery of newspapers, shoveled snow from age 10) I paid rent from 18, in my own apartment —moldy basement suite — at 19, paid one year of college then dropped out — couldn’t afford it — zero family help. Everything bought used, everything bought cash.

Started my business across the country at 30 with 25K. No RRSP, no house, pension, one old car. No debt. Kept living cheap. Made some money, eventually, bought a cheap house — cash. Still have it. Everything bought with cash. Only 2 cars bought new, rest used.

After — got my pilots license and ratings. Cash. Instructor quipped once “your lucky”.

Uh —No.

Nobody owns me.

But nobody wants to pay that price.

There is nothing wrong with making all of the right choices and getting lucky enough times to make it.

Unfortunately, when someone is a professional pilot and is unable to afford the basics (rent, food, gas, internet, phone) without taking on more and more debt, there is a problem.

Safety is being compromised and the employers are willing to bet that it won't bite them in the ass.