Single Pilot PPC in 2 Crew Op?

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ZBB118.10
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Single Pilot PPC in 2 Crew Op?

Post by ZBB118.10 »

Question:

Pilot 1 - PIC - has a single pilot PPC...

Pilot 2 - SIC (co pilot) has two crew PPC...

Company has approved two crew SOP's in its Ops manual...

Can SIC log co pilot time with Captain who is single pilot PPC'd? My guess is that a captain who is single pilot PPC'd can operate in a two crew operation and his co-pilot can log co-pilot time as long as there is approved two crew SOP's in the ops manual? Aircraft may or may not have a functioning auto-pilot.

Any thoughts?
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prop2jet
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Post by prop2jet »

If the aircraft only requires one pilot, the Pilot or Capt if you will, has to demonstrate the ability to operate the aircraft single pilot regardless of whethere the company operates the aircraft with 2 crew.

Generally most operators that add an extra crewmember to a single pilot type aircraft (Navajo or other...) will PCC the individual. In order to be able to log the time as SIC the operations manual must specify that the aircraft is to be operated 2 crew and as you pointed out, appropriate SOP's are in place.

If the aircraft does not have a functionning autopilot, then it cannot be operated single pilot.
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flyinthebug
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Post by flyinthebug »

Just to add to what Prop2Jet said... The single pilot PPC pilot would require a "right seat conversion" check , completed by the CP. Once this training was complete, he could then log SIC time and the 2 crew PPC skipper could log PIC. Unless the single pilot PPC receives the right seat conversion training he could not log as SIC. The 2 crew PPC pilot would likely already have his/her right seat conversion and therefore could log from either seat.
Damn, that sounds complicated! Must be a TC reg ;)
Hope this helps. Fly safe all
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Johnny
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Post by Johnny »

AFAIK both crew members need to be licensed for two-crew operations in order to both log time under 703 and to have 14 hour duty day.

Sometimes it's two separate rides (one with co-jo, one without).

Thinking logically, if it didn't make a difference, there wouldn't be a distinction between single-pilot or two-crew in the PPC.
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CAL
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Post by CAL »

anyone know how bearskin does it on the metro's?...is the FO ppc'd?
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Post by Freeride »

When in doubt log it :)
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lost
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Post by lost »

Depending on where you do your ride Transport has started to change this. It use to be that if you did a single pilot ride you could just throw a cojo in if the autopilot died (assuming the copilot was ppc'd or pcc'd.) Now they want the Captain to have done a 2 crew ride to fly with a co-pilot otherwise your not allowed. Sometime 2 seperate rides other times its 1/2 and 1/2. Of course it depends on what your transport guy decides THEIR rules are on a given day.
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lost
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Post by lost »

just to add, you don't have to show single pilot proficiency just because the a/c is built for one pilot. If the company has 2 crew ops for it you just do a 2 crew ride. It just means your only allowed to fly it 2 crew.
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Post by Cap'n P8 »

I work for Wasaya on the PC12. We fly two crew for passenger operations and single-pilot for freight. When we do our PPC rides part of it is accomplished single-pilot and the other part is two crew. This seems to satisfy Transports requirements.
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ZBB118.10
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Post by ZBB118.10 »

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... tm#723a_86

I have read and re-read the CARS and can see no specific regulation stating that a Captain possessing a single pilot PPC for a particular aircraft type cannot fly in a 2 crew op with a co-pilot who initially did his ride in a 2 crew operated aircraft. Neither does it state anywhere that a ride must be half 2 crew, half single pilot etc...

So it looks like the two types of PPC can be mixed without additional training?
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Post by Bliss »

Bearskin F/O's get right seat PPC's, Capt's get Left seat PPC. Both pilots required to do flight, if either one screws up on a ride and the other doesn't catch it, both fail and NFP loses PPC also since Metro is considered a two crew required aircraft according to TC, in theory anyways.
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lost
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Post by lost »

ZBB118.10 says
"I have read and re-read the CARS and can see no specific regulation stating that a Captain possessing a single pilot PPC for a particular aircraft type cannot fly in a 2 crew op with a co-pilot who initially did his ride in a 2 crew operated aircraft. Neither does it state anywhere that a ride must be half 2 crew, half single pilot etc...

So it looks like the two types of PPC can be mixed without additional training?"

This sounds good in theory but I'm telling you from experience transport doesnt see it that way. We use to do just that and where told it was illegal and would be violated for it.
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lost
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Post by lost »

ZBB118.10 says
"I have read and re-read the CARS and can see no specific regulation stating that a Captain possessing a single pilot PPC for a particular aircraft type cannot fly in a 2 crew op with a co-pilot who initially did his ride in a 2 crew operated aircraft. Neither does it state anywhere that a ride must be half 2 crew, half single pilot etc...

So it looks like the two types of PPC can be mixed without additional training?"

This sounds good in theory but I'm telling you from experience transport doesnt see it that way. We use to do just that and where told it was illegal and would be violated for it.
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sofar
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ppc navajo

Post by sofar »

I just did my PPC on the navajo 2 weeks ago in Quebec, did it single. After we landed at the end of the test, the guy is asking me ..so, this means you will fly single on the navajo now, because i dont have my 1000 hours yet, i told him i will be with a copilot until i reach the magic number. He them told me, hoooo...well, if you going to fly with another guy, this means we should had fly a third approach ....the 2 first one single, and the last one in a 2 crew operation. My point is...i think we need the 2 types of check ride is you are going to fly single and 2 crew ops.
Hope this help
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amazing
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Post by CAL »

Thanks Bliss...
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