Is the ACPA Motto: "We will get'em next time" gone?

[unionism101]

Just read the latest message from the MEC and it seems finally we have a pilot leadership team that isn't into the mantra: "We will get'em next time"

Being forced into an impasse would have compressed negotiations and would have made it extremely tough to negotiate a comprehensive deal. It would have inevitably led to ACPA's enshrined motto of "let's capture this and work on improving that hole we just created later"

Kaplan will without doubt agree that whatever WestJet pilots already negotiated is a given for Canada's lone flag carrier. The rest of the gap can be obtained through an effective job action campaign

With the threat of Kaplan calling an impasse that will give the negotiating committee significant leverage with an adult at the table supervising

No one said this would be easy and good to see some strategy for once from Air Canada Pilots. Looks like the support from ALPA is really paying off dividends for this pilot group

[Hangry]

Simping for the company is a bad look. Simping for ALPA is equally bad.

Summer growth sked assured. Chess for company. Checkers for pilots.

[stall]

Hangry,

Grab a Snickers

The company was completely dragging their heels to get to impasse before the summer to compress the timeline.

Then you're left with striking outside the summer AND being forced into a timeline

We can still strike this summer if there isn't progress at the table...Kaplan can declare an impasse at anytime

[aeronauticaldisaster]

Simping for the company is a bad look. Simping for ALPA is equally bad.

Summer growth sked assured. Chess for company. Checkers for pilots.

I dont think fumbling around like a bunch of goons to force an impasse is chess. More like snakes & ladders. A 5 years could figure this plan out

[billybgone345]

The company wasn't going to give the pilots the option to strike in the summer. They were heavily hinting an impasse to start the clock for an April strike to preserve the summer schedule. For those that claim lost leverage I'd argue there is nothing lost you never had leverage to begin with

[Ash Ketchum]

What I don't understand is if there was a strike in April and no return to work legislation implemented by the government, wouldn't that be in the pilot groups advantage? The company couldn't let the strike go on into the summer travel season and would eventually have cave to give the pilot group what they ask for.

[CPU2000]

What I don't understand is if there was a strike in April and no return to work legislation implemented by the government, wouldn't that be in the pilot groups advantage? The company couldn't let the strike go on into the summer travel season and would eventually have cave to give the pilot group what they ask for.

Company would have called the impasse now then started the clock. They would have dicked around until the final minute and gave up some gains to get a deal. The deal would have been a bandaid of pay and a few other items

Remember, the negotiating committee is asking to review the entire collective agreement line by line. That can't be done at 3am with a strike looming

Air Canada pilots deserve an all inclusive world class contract

[eurotrash]

So the union is using the summer as leverage to bring in a mediator to force the company to negotiate?

And then we can still strike this summer if the adult at the table sees the company continuing buffoonery?

Seems wise to me

[Hangry]

.

[rudder]

I haven’t seen the actual text of the bulletin but I get the gist of it is that the parties have mutually agreed to a mediation process on a specific timeline. I can presume that any MOA includes terms of reference for the mediation including role, responsibilities, authority, and likely non-prejudice.

The underlying reality is that if you involved in a ‘big book’ negotiations (high volume of proposals), the time component of the process will increase on a nearly linear basis.

This MOA puts an adult in the room. It probably confers authority on the mediator to set the meeting schedule. Therefore one can presume an appropriate/aggressive volume of meeting days between now and June 01st.

Nobody gets to pick the strike/lockout date. This is about as close as you are going to get to that.

So by June 01st there will either be:

1. An agreement (TA)
2. An impasse
3. A mutually agreed extension to the mediation process (if that is a feature of the MOA)

I would expect an arbitrator with Kaplan’s experience to be equally hard on both parties. And if you bring a lot of proposals then you will need to be prepared to explain them and defend them. Whether you retain those proposals, modify them, or drop them is a function of the will of the membership in combination with the overall costing of the proposed changes (editorial vs economic).

Regardless, whether it is a strike ballot or a TA, it will be the membership that ultimately decides.

[a2btrail]

This move from the MEC makes no sense. All it does is drag the process out mean while we are getting paid the same and under the same conditions. While they keep labour cost low. Also there is a good chance of no retro active pay. The company is winning lol.

If an impass is called June 1st. We wouldn't be able to strike until late August. The company gets their way with us in the mean time and get the majority of their summer schedule completed.

This only hurts our pilot group.

[RippleRock]

This move from the MEC makes no sense. All it does is drag the process out mean while we are getting paid the same and under the same conditions. While they keep labour cost low. Also there is a good chance of no retro active pay. The company is winning lol.

If an impass is called June 1st. We wouldn't be able to strike until late August. The company gets their way with us in the mean time and get the majority of their summer schedule completed.

This only hurts our pilot group.

I don't agree one bit. My opinion though.

The Company is dragging its feet. The appointment of a Mediator forces "meaningful bargaining". Full day sessions. They will have the opportunity to look at "ALL 1200 irritants" in the contract under the watchful eyes of the Mediator. NO BS. If we just "pull the trigger" on the strike timeline now, we will likely get a "watered down" settlement that would mostly comprise a raise only. There are far, far too many "gotcha's" in the contract that need close attention.

Remember it's only January. We could have 3 months of "meaningful bargaining" under the watch of a mediator, then pull the 90-day strike trigger on May 1st for a summer strike if we don't have an agreement by then.

This was a brilliant move by our MEC as it would look bad for the Company to declare an impass while bargaining under the watch of an official. The shit contract we have now is going to get the proper attention it needs. A raise is the icing on the cake, but the cake is equally as important.

Support your Union. They need you more now than ever!!!

[BTD]

This move from the MEC makes no sense. All it does is drag the process out mean while we are getting paid the same and under the same conditions. While they keep labour cost low. Also there is a good chance of no retro active pay. The company is winning lol.

If an impass is called June 1st. We wouldn't be able to strike until late August. The company gets their way with us in the mean time and get the majority of their summer schedule completed.

This only hurts our pilot group.

I don't agree one bit. My opinion though.

The Company is dragging its feet. The appointment of a Mediator forces "meaningful bargaining". Full day sessions. They will have the opportunity to look at "ALL 1200 irritants" in the contract under the watchful eyes of the Mediator. NO BS. If we just "pull the trigger" on the strike timeline now, we will likely get a "watered down" settlement that would mostly comprise a raise only. There are far, far too many "gotcha's" in the contract that need close attention.

Remember it's only January. We could have 3 months of "meaningful bargaining" under the watch of a mediator, then pull the 90-day strike trigger on May 1st for a summer strike if we don't have an agreement by then.

This was a brilliant move by our MEC as it would look bad for the Company to declare an impass while bargaining under the watch of an official. The shit contract we have now is going to get the proper attention it needs. A raise is the icing on the cake, but the cake is equally as important.

Support your Union. They need you more now than ever!!!

+1

When I first read the email, I wasn’t so sure it was a good move. After a little bit of thinking about it, I think it was the right one.

[RippleRock]

August is a "hugely busy month" for us.

Even if it happened on Rudders timeline, late August is a bad time in the Companies eyes for us to strike. August strike potential would be in the news by June, and would shatter summer bookings from that point forward. Either way, this is NOT bad news.

[CaliforniaDreamin]

This move from the MEC makes no sense. All it does is drag the process out mean while we are getting paid the same and under the same conditions. While they keep labour cost low. Also there is a good chance of no retro active pay. The company is winning lol.

If an impass is called June 1st. We wouldn't be able to strike until late August. The company gets their way with us in the mean time and get the majority of their summer schedule completed.

This only hurts our pilot group.

Holy fuk Canadian pilots are dumb

US Airline pilot groups spend time negotiating agreements with lots of "little wins". Southwest took 3 years and will be the highest paid 737 pilots on the planet with productivity that puts the 12 x 50% pay deadheads an AC narrowbody pilot would do to shame

We have pilots that want to blow their load on a bit of pay.

Holy sheet. Happy to hear we have ALPA adults in the room

[Torontomaplelaughs]

This move from the MEC makes no sense. All it does is drag the process out mean while we are getting paid the same and under the same conditions. While they keep labour cost low. Also there is a good chance of no retro active pay. The company is winning lol.

If an impass is called June 1st. We wouldn't be able to strike until late August. The company gets their way with us in the mean time and get the majority of their summer schedule completed.

This only hurts our pilot group.

So you're saying the smart move was to be pushed into a crunched timeline and not sorting out the myriad of issues with this contract?

So then fix it later?

But then 3 years just repeat and fix a few things and then fix it later?

And just repeat while we fall further & further behind?

Great strategy

[Fanblade]

So the union is using the summer as leverage to bring in a mediator to force the company to negotiate?

And then we can still strike this summer if the adult at the table sees the company continuing buffoonery?

You got it.

We get leverage to force negotiations that aren’t happening.

AC avoids both an April or Summer strike/lockout so long as they negotiate.

I’m actually surprised the company agreed to this. They normally do anything and everything in their power to avoid negotiating. Now they are in a position that if they don’t? Summer is at risk.

Have they thought this through? Or did they just jump on the appeal of kicking the can down the road?

We will know soon enough.

[RippleRock]

So the union is using the summer as leverage to bring in a mediator to force the company to negotiate?

And then we can still strike this summer if the adult at the table sees the company continuing buffoonery?

You got it.

We get leverage to force negotiations that aren’t happening.

AC avoids both an April or Summer strike/lockout so long as they negotiate.

I’m actually surprised the company agreed to this. They normally do anything and everything in their power to avoid negotiating. Now they are in a position that if they don’t? Summer is at risk.

Have they thought this through? Or did they just jump on the appeal of kicking the can down the road?

We will know soon enough.

Agreed. At this point we have to face the fact the we are "all in". There's no altering course or turning around. The best we can do is support our MEC 100%

We need to read the emails from Charlene and do EXACTLY as she asks of us.

Trust ALPA with it's 70,000+ members and decades of successful bargaining (especially recently) to backstop our push.

Above all.....

HOLD THE LINE.

[IKEA_Monkey]

WEAR YOUR GODDAMN LANYARD PEOPLE!!

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Honestly I'd probably be homeless if we went on strike or lockout now. So from a personal perspective this is great for me.

But I don't think we should have delayed job action until September. The risk of a downturn in the economy hurting our bargaining position is too high.

[billybgone345]

The risk of a downturn in the economy hurting our bargaining position is too high.

According to who? Your emotions? First line of the article "Air Canada (AC.TO) and WestJet Airlines are set to book higher profit in 2024, according to Moody’s Investors Service."

Recessions are not announced until months after they start so for all we know we are already in the middle of the recession



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... KVwZbqw7Fk

[RippleRock]

Honestly I'd probably be homeless if we went on strike or lockout now. So from a personal perspective this is great for me.

But I don't think we should have delayed job action until September. The risk of a downturn in the economy hurting our bargaining position is too high.

A bit of advice. PLAN BETTER. We could have been on strike within a month if the trigger had been pulled sooner. We will strike in September, or August. Best be ready, could be out a few weeks.



As far as the economy hurting our position.....do you think maybe that if fuel prices rise in the fall, AC won't pay them? How about an increase in landing fees come September?

Do you think AC won't step up and pay the bills if the economy "turns" a bit???

Why on God's green earth do you (and we) think our compensation package should be linked to the swings of the "economic winds"??? Why exactly does our compensation package need to be the "kingpin" on which this operation functions or doesn't? "Oh, the Economy is contracting a bit, let's not pay the pilots as much", but we will pay "all other bills promptly and on time".

This type of thinking needs to END, right now.

We need a complete paradigm shift in that we are now a fixed cost, and that cost will be paid and applied to forward ticket pricing. No longer should we even remotely think that our "direct worth" is somehow linked to the "economic situation" while most other costs of running this airline are NOT. We need to stop being the "fall guys"...the "low hanging fruit" that can be plucked any time the economy turns slightly south.

Know your worth that being an essential part of this operation brings.....not a single nickel is made unless we are behind the controls safely moving the aircraft from point A to point B. Not ONE nickel.


Remember that your CEO needs you behind the controls to make 320 MILLION nickels for him to meet his personal salary expectations for 2024 alone.


HOLD THE LINE

[MontrealCanucks]

Honestly I'd probably be homeless if we went on strike or lockout now. So from a personal perspective this is great for me.

But I don't think we should have delayed job action until September. The risk of a downturn in the economy hurting our bargaining position is too high.

A bit of advice. PLAN BETTER. We could have been on strike within a month if the trigger had been pulled sooner. We will strike in September, or August. Best be ready, could be out a few weeks.



As far as the economy hurting our position.....do you think maybe that if fuel prices rise in the fall, AC won't pay them? How about an increase in landing fees come September?

Do you think AC won't step up and pay the bills if the economy "turns" a bit???

Why on God's green earth do you (and we) think our compensation package should be linked to the swings of the "economic winds"??? Why exactly does our compensation package need to be the "kingpin" on which this operation functions or doesn't? "Oh, the Economy is contracting a bit, let's not pay the pilots as much", but we will pay "all other bills promptly and on time".

This type of thinking needs to END, right now.

We need a complete paradigm shift in that we are now a fixed cost, and that cost will be paid and applied to forward ticket pricing. No longer should we even remotely think that our "direct worth" is somehow linked to the "economic situation" while most other costs of running this airline are NOT. We need to stop being the "fall guys"...the "low hanging fruit" that can be plucked any time the economy turns slightly south.

Know your worth that being an essential part of this operation brings.....not a single nickel is made unless we are behind the controls safely moving the aircraft from point A to point B. Not ONE nickel.


Remember that your CEO needs you behind the controls to make 320 MILLION nickels for him to meet his personal salary expectations for 2024 alone.


HOLD THE LINE

Exactly Ripple

The executives had no problem taking millions in bonuses when the company was losing BILLIONS

The short term economic environment or the mere threat of a downturn should NOT minimize our position on achieving an EXTENSIVE new collective agreement that is in line with other North American Legacy carriers...ie A World Class Contract

I am relieved to have adults in the room this time around versus the amateur decade of ACPA and their cronies

https://globalnews.ca/news/7909607/air- ... c-bonuses/

[Hangry]

I will say maybe my initial reaction was off. The vid helped explain a few things.

[vanislepilot]

Yo, correct me if i’m wrong, but am I wrong when I say
What economic downturn?
Covid inflated everything, from homes to cars to a skewer at a restaurant. Remember in 2022 when gas was over 2$ everywhere in Canada? Didn’t mortgages all double last year? A bunch of stocks tanked last year, big tech companies laid off many. I’m not an economist so if i’m spewing nonsense, yell at me, but weren’t we literally just in (or still in) a downturn? Are mortgages gonna triple this year now? Like what’s going to happen that will officially label this year as a downturn?

Flights are still freaking packed, oversold, travel is still booming in my opinion,
my opinion isn’t a fact but it’s based on what I see