Who can answer this?
Why does CYYZ insist on landing and departing aircraft when the wind is 90 degrees and BLOWING HARD to the runway.
Its nuts!
Tell you what, that plus despite what the A.T.I.S. say's, be prepared to change your landing runway at least twice maybe even 3 times.
In a FMS equipped airplane coupled to an arrival it will result in some pretty funny looking ground tracks.
CYYZ Arrival's
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
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goingmach_1
- Rank 3
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goingmach_1
- Rank 3
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Well, perhaps I should first of all say that this is not the first time I have landed in Toronto.
Point is, I was looking for an answer to a question. Not a opinion of who I am.
As it turns out, I have been fortunate enough to have had a tour of the Nav Canada Toronto ATC centre only weeks ago.
I brought this very question up to a high level supervisor. The answer was "very dynamic situation" here you never know whats going on.
I agree. Pilots live in a little capsule. There is no way we have the BIG picture when it comes to a overall scheme of things.
However, with over 12,000 hrs PIC jet experience, I have noticed that YYZ behaves differently than other supposedly busy centres.
As you are probably aware, when arriving in the say, New York or Paris France or any other busy city you have been to, they stick to the PLAN. (A.T.I.S.)
Toronto, to me, does not seem to have a plan!
This is based on my most recent experience of landing in Toronto 3 or 4 times a week in the last 2 years.
I know, obviously, that I have not the same qualifications as you, but perhaps at least worthy of a question.
So, any A.T.C. people who would like to answer my question, "why is there no plan, when arriving from the east?"
Point is, I was looking for an answer to a question. Not a opinion of who I am.
As it turns out, I have been fortunate enough to have had a tour of the Nav Canada Toronto ATC centre only weeks ago.
I brought this very question up to a high level supervisor. The answer was "very dynamic situation" here you never know whats going on.
I agree. Pilots live in a little capsule. There is no way we have the BIG picture when it comes to a overall scheme of things.
However, with over 12,000 hrs PIC jet experience, I have noticed that YYZ behaves differently than other supposedly busy centres.
As you are probably aware, when arriving in the say, New York or Paris France or any other busy city you have been to, they stick to the PLAN. (A.T.I.S.)
Toronto, to me, does not seem to have a plan!
This is based on my most recent experience of landing in Toronto 3 or 4 times a week in the last 2 years.
I know, obviously, that I have not the same qualifications as you, but perhaps at least worthy of a question.
So, any A.T.C. people who would like to answer my question, "why is there no plan, when arriving from the east?"
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justplanecrazy
- Rank 8
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- Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:57 pm
Murray, give the guy a break!!!
Sure the comment about switching runways up to three times on a regular basis, is assinine at best, but he's asking a question that's legitimate. You can't go off about how your 40,000hrs trumps his world wide airport experiences. From the sounds of it you have no experience working any other busy terminal space especially outside of Canada, so you have no idea how Toronto compares to the world. I've heard the same comments about the poor setup at Toronto and don't ever take it as an insult towards the ATC in terminal or west low but rather a question regarding the airports airspace setup.
I could take a few stabs as to what some of the problems might be such as high winds with significant shifts due to the location and the proximity to the great lakes, or the lack of a few rigid arrival routes over more efficient gates, or a poor airport layout. All of these may contribute but I don't work in terminal or Toronto or even IFR, so I really have no idea. He just came on here asking a question wanting someone to elaborate on the "very dynamic situation", not to tell you that you suck at your job. Although he may be way over the top and exagerating, I've heard these same points from many international pilots and I think it deserves a better answer than shut the @#$! up.
Sure the comment about switching runways up to three times on a regular basis, is assinine at best, but he's asking a question that's legitimate. You can't go off about how your 40,000hrs trumps his world wide airport experiences. From the sounds of it you have no experience working any other busy terminal space especially outside of Canada, so you have no idea how Toronto compares to the world. I've heard the same comments about the poor setup at Toronto and don't ever take it as an insult towards the ATC in terminal or west low but rather a question regarding the airports airspace setup.
I could take a few stabs as to what some of the problems might be such as high winds with significant shifts due to the location and the proximity to the great lakes, or the lack of a few rigid arrival routes over more efficient gates, or a poor airport layout. All of these may contribute but I don't work in terminal or Toronto or even IFR, so I really have no idea. He just came on here asking a question wanting someone to elaborate on the "very dynamic situation", not to tell you that you suck at your job. Although he may be way over the top and exagerating, I've heard these same points from many international pilots and I think it deserves a better answer than shut the @#$! up.
We have no effective screening methods to make sure pilots are sane.
— Dr. Herbert Haynes, Federal Aviation Authority.
— Dr. Herbert Haynes, Federal Aviation Authority.
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The Velvet Fog
- Rank 2
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- Location: YYZ
I'm still of the opinion that only aircraft on a straight in approach should be told their runway by the enroute. All other fixes have at least 45 miles of flying to touchdown to get organized. Then, there wouldn't be any runway changes except for surprises like bird strikes, blown tires or snow removal.
The ATIS does not assign a runway. Brief both active approaches. It tells what is active at that moment and nothing else. It is a least 10 minutes behind any change to the operation. Use it as a guide, not a rule.
We will be on the 06/24's at all times except illegal/ out of limits crosswinds. It's about maximizing movements and nothing else. Terminal controllers do NOT get to choose the active runways.
It's a pity you didn't come to the Terminal on your visit..it's worth the trip, and you'll get the answers you need. You'll also see the other side of the operation and the headaches/inefficiencies caused by crews who aren't listening( even missing calls while on base leg), or crews who taxi on and off the runways like a myopic grandmother in a Lada.
The place is not perfect. In my opinion, they would have been far better off to plow this place under and start over somewhere else and build an ergonomically functional airport. If you think it sucks now, wait until Terminal 1 is fully open. What we have now will seem brilliant compared to the roadblock that is to come. Just picture 35 departures all pushing from the south end of the field at the same time and you'll get the picture.
Sorry to be longwinded, but a song is a song.
Regards,
Mel
The ATIS does not assign a runway. Brief both active approaches. It tells what is active at that moment and nothing else. It is a least 10 minutes behind any change to the operation. Use it as a guide, not a rule.
We will be on the 06/24's at all times except illegal/ out of limits crosswinds. It's about maximizing movements and nothing else. Terminal controllers do NOT get to choose the active runways.
It's a pity you didn't come to the Terminal on your visit..it's worth the trip, and you'll get the answers you need. You'll also see the other side of the operation and the headaches/inefficiencies caused by crews who aren't listening( even missing calls while on base leg), or crews who taxi on and off the runways like a myopic grandmother in a Lada.
The place is not perfect. In my opinion, they would have been far better off to plow this place under and start over somewhere else and build an ergonomically functional airport. If you think it sucks now, wait until Terminal 1 is fully open. What we have now will seem brilliant compared to the roadblock that is to come. Just picture 35 departures all pushing from the south end of the field at the same time and you'll get the picture.
Sorry to be longwinded, but a song is a song.
Regards,
Mel
I will take 24.9 kts 90 degrees to the runway any time over a 1 hour gate hold in NY or 45 minutes revisiting LINNG.
On the whole, you guys do a great job of maximizing movements within the restrictive design of the airport and current regulations.
Keep up the good work!
As for the "modern FMS equipped aircraft", a runway change has never been so easy to handle. Join a flying club if you only want to drive on nice days!
On the whole, you guys do a great job of maximizing movements within the restrictive design of the airport and current regulations.
Keep up the good work!
As for the "modern FMS equipped aircraft", a runway change has never been so easy to handle. Join a flying club if you only want to drive on nice days!
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goingmach_1
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mellow_pilot
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When kicked by an ass, you must consider the source.goingmach_1 wrote:Wow, after posting what I thought was a, everbody's question, I have to say "Murrays" replies has turned me off this forum.
To include profanity in a reply shows a certain level of maturity.
I therefore wish to close this thread with: "No further comment."
You'll notice that there are folks that get defensive/angry on AvCanada from time to time over nothing. Sometimes it's a mis-read of a post that pisses them off, sometimes they're just cranky people. Sometimes they're good folk who have just been having a shitty day.
Don't take it personally. Ignore the anger, read the rest.
Dyslexics of the world... UNTIE!
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mellow_pilot
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grammar boy
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I've flown Airbus and Boeing. A runway change is pretty much exactly the same amount of work in both. In either case, if you've had the foresight to realize that you might get a change, it's about 20 seconds work in VMC, 40 if it's IMC (more detailed briefing).MURRAY wrote:CChanging from one to the other doesn't appear to be a huge issue for Airbus aircraft, but sounds like a bigger deal for a glass Boeing.
"Listen brain, I don't like you and you don't like me, so let's just get through this one thing and I can go back to killing you with beer"
Murray,
You seem a little stressed. I agree with the need for specifics, I too refuse to answer general trolling questions. However, calm down, you have a guy asking a question about your work site and you go balistic on him. This is why people leave to other forums to get answers instead of attacked.
You seem a little stressed. I agree with the need for specifics, I too refuse to answer general trolling questions. However, calm down, you have a guy asking a question about your work site and you go balistic on him. This is why people leave to other forums to get answers instead of attacked.
