safest airplane to train spins on?

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:04 am

Good day,

I am gathering information on an instructor rating and looking to find out which is the safest airplane to train spins on? I have a choice of either a low wing airplane school such as Peninsulair (Hamilton, ONtario)on the cherokees and other schools such as the island airport (Toronto City Centre ) that have high wing cessnas.

I hear that the cessnas 172s are the safest as I have spun both high and low wing aircraft. But I am talking in respect of the student where you don't scare the living s&^% out of them.

Any info on the safest plane to teach and spin would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

helinas

flyincanuck · Post by **flyincanuck** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:31 am

I don't think it's a questions of which plane is more dangerous than maybe which plane recovers easier.

I find they're almost the same to be honest. The 172s might "come out" of the spin a little quicker than the 140s (if you just let go of the controls).

And about scaring the students: it doesn't matter what airplane you teach on. It's about how you present the lesson. If you really want them to learn about spins, don't take them up to 6,000 stall the plane, and shove the rudder in for 7 rotations.

Break the spin in segments.

First I'll demo the incipient spin (let the a/c rotate 90 degrees) and recover, then have the student try it.

Then I'll spin the plane 180 degrees, let the studnet try it.

Then a full rotation, let the studnet try it.

etc, etc

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:49 am

The C172 is a pig to spin. It often doesn't want to enter a spin, which can be frustrating for a candidate on a flight test. The 172 POH has amusing advice about how to force a spin entry.

The Cherokee 140 is not often spun - the W&B requirements are very strict and can be difficult to meet.

The Piper Traumahawk has a bad reputation in spins - feed some keywords into google, and start reading - but it was designed to spin enthusiasically.

The Cessna 150/152 is probably the best generic light trainer for spins, IMHO. It's kinda cramped, but gosh does it ever spin well. Bill Kershner has made a living out of spinning his 150 - no kidding.

C-GPFG · Post by **C-GPFG** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:51 am

The Cherokee 140 has had issues with spins.

Piper Aircraft Corporation updated the PA-28-140 Cherokee Pilot Operating Handbook through a Service Bulletin (SB) in 1982. SB 753 provides “expanded spin recovery procedures to assure that proper safety practices and procedures relative to utility category flight operations are in effect”. Piper made it mandatory to retain this SB in the airplane at all times.

beechy · Post by **beechy** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:34 pm

Don't spin anything outside the c of g limits! and nothing over 6 turns......

Miss Mae · Post by **Miss Mae** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:46 pm

Any spin certified aircraft is a good airplane to teach spins on. Just respect it's C of G limitations.

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:20 pm

giver a bit of power right when she's ready to start turning over, that'll help her spin (172).

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:51 pm

Go with the 150 for spin training. It goes in and comes out of a spin nicely. Also, I'd advise trying Brampton or Guelph for and instructor rating before going to the island; it will save you money and the class 1s there are a bit more on the ball then some of the ones at the island.

Zapp Brannigan · Post by **Zapp Brannigan** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:22 pm

I think the 172 is probably the easiest for spin recovery. Some people can be scared, let go of the controls and it stops spinning (still need to pull out of the dive though). As said, it can also be a pig to get into a nice spin without going into a spiral.

The C150 spins great.

Norskman · Post by **Norskman** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:11 pm

Hedley wrote:The C172 is a pig to spin. It often doesn't want to enter a spin, which can be frustrating for a candidate on a flight test.

Its a good thing for C172 students that spins are no longer required on the flight test anymore.

Zapp Brannigan · Post by **Zapp Brannigan** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:34 pm

Norskman wrote:
Hedley wrote:The C172 is a pig to spin. It often doesn't want to enter a spin, which can be frustrating for a candidate on a flight test.
Its a good thing for C172 students that spins are no longer required on the flight test anymore.

Commercial flight tests they're still an item

Norskman · Post by **Norskman** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:37 pm

My bad. I'm still in PPL land.

Norskman · Post by **Norskman** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:37 pm

I only hit it once.. I swear.

Golden Flyer · Post by **Golden Flyer** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:32 pm

Go 150! It's almost like the 172's are anti spinning... They never want to go in...

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:53 pm

I've only spun a 172 once. It wouldn't let me spin more than 3 rotations.

-istp

C-GPFG · Post by **C-GPFG** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:20 pm

Norskman wrote:
Hedley wrote:The C172 is a pig to spin. It often doesn't want to enter a spin, which can be frustrating for a candidate on a flight test.
Its a good thing for C172 students that spins are no longer required on the flight test anymore.

A CPL candidate won't fail the exercise if the plane doesn't spin after an acceptable entry technique. If they call spiral, and use the proper spiral recovery, they'll pass that excercise.

Front. · Post by **Front.** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:27 pm

is there really any plane that is relatively safer than another in the spin excercise?

I think the safety lies behind if you recover properly lol...

Now if we're talking stable that's a whole other discussion.

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:47 pm

How about the DA-20?

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:51 pm

172s are the most boring to spin, so if you want nice easy spin recover I'd go with a 172.

152s are better spinners then the 172 but as Hedley said they are a tight fit.

The best spinners I've flown are the A1 and C1 Katana's, they will continue to spin for at least one-two rotations after recovery is started.

Citabria's are also fun, in more ways then spins

If this doesn't help here is one final piece of advice on spins, NEVER spin a Grumman Aircraft.

Lurch

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:27 pm

I assume you mean C1 Eclipse

They spin pretty well. I've tried neutralizing the controls and they stay in it for the most part. They definately accelerate through each rotation even without the normal acceleration techniques.

They recover quite nicely, but if you recover through the half rotations (1.5,2.5) expect to be upside down or close to it, so I always try to come out after whole rotations.

From a student perspective the toughest part in the C1 seems to be holding the stick all the way back. People seem to find it uncomfortable stick full back (that goes for the stall as well) and the spring tension for the trim makes it that much harder.

Another one that I'm sure will come up soon is the Z242. It will definately stay in if you do nothing.

BTD

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:47 pm

The only thing that I've flown that's worse than a Zlin (or better, depending on if you like spins) is a Puchaz. Some gliders are wicked in the spin. The pook will snap from fully developed one direction to aggrivated the other if you mess with it. Fun ship all-round.

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:56 pm

what do you think of the cherokee 140s? are they easy to spin and recover?

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:08 pm

BTD wrote:I assume you mean C1 Eclipse They spin pretty well. BTD

Oops A1 Katana, C1 Eclipse.

Note to self proof read before posting.

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:48 pm

Hedley wrote:The C172 is a pig to spin. It often doesn't want to enter a spin, which can be frustrating for a candidate on a flight test. The 172 POH has amusing advice about how to force a spin entry.

The Cherokee 140 is not often spun - the W&B requirements are very strict and can be difficult to meet.

The Piper Traumahawk has a bad reputation in spins - feed some keywords into google, and start reading - but it was designed to spin enthusiasically.

The Cessna 150/152 is probably the best generic light trainer for spins, IMHO. It's kinda cramped, but gosh does it ever spin well. Bill Kershner has made a living out of spinning his 150 - no kidding.

I gree the 150/152...however I'm not all that down on the 172 for spins either...you just have to work them a bit harder...& with power you can wip a 172 into a realy great spin...PLUS that way a student doesn't get into the habit of not pulling the power to idle. One problem with teaching students spins with power already at idle is that they say power idle but they never check it. So when they are in a spin with power they never think to reduce it

looproll · Post by **looproll** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:56 am

I am gathering information on an instructor rating and looking to find out which is the safest airplane to train spins on? I have a choice of either a low wing airplane school such as Peninsulair (Hamilton, ONtario)on the cherokees and other schools such as the island airport (Toronto City Centre ) that have high wing cessnas.

So, you are choosing a school based on which airplane you perceive as being the least freaky for students to spin? That's interesting criteria for selection.