Dileema.... Need some outside input pls!

CGZMT · Post by **CGZMT** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:24 am

Hey there. Just doing the yearly resume hand out when my employer from last year called. Last year I flew for a lodge on a dogged out 180 doing camp checks and supply runs. Near the end of the summer I realized the owners weren't the greatest. I vowed not to return with the cook, the cheif guide and his hostess wife. Well I just got a call from them asking for me to come back like my contract said. Story being no contract was ever drafted!
I was told that when I first accepted the job last year I would ONLY have to fly and work at the outposts for 2k a month. As soon as I was up there I was plumbing, building, electrical work, dockhand as well as boat washer and dishwasher for the guests. The real piss off was that he said he would fix all the outboards at the lodge and outposts. No one but him was supposed to touch them! Well shit happened and we had a bad streak. If it wasn't for me there would have been no motors. I found myself daily fixing motors for various reasons ie bad gas, stuck carbs, busted recoils etc.
If I go back I want to go back on my terms. The question I ask is how much should a dockhand/dishwasher/maintenance person/pilot/guide and general handyman get paid? In no way am I trying to pompous but I was just wondering what the standard was in the industry for this. Thanks for the future help. The only up side was that for a first job in the industry I was able to get 280 hours on floats. This put but over the 600TT and over 400 on floats. Once again thanks for the input!

Sincerely CGZMT

ragbagflyer · Post by **ragbagflyer** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:41 am

With your total time you should be able to ask for at least 3500 I would think. Especially considering your versatility. I'd still keep on handing out resumes though. There's nothing wrong with taking another offer as long as you can give these other guys resonable notice. I'm lucky because the company I worked for last year was awesome so I'm not sending out resumes. Besides, I figure after the risks they took on me I owe them at least one more season. And I get to move up to a bigger machine. Boo ya.

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:46 am

I've got news for you. All the tasks you describe are tasks 99% of newbie float pilots are expected to do. The only difference is you got 280 hrs. Most get about 30 in the first season.

ragbagflyer · Post by **ragbagflyer** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:47 am

With your total time you should be able to ask for at least 3500 I would think. Especially considering your versatility. I'd still keep on handing out resumes though. There's nothing wrong with taking another offer as long as you can give these other guys resonable notice. I'm lucky because the company I worked for last year was awesome so I'm not sending out resumes. Besides, I figure after the risks they took on me I owe them at least one more season. And I get to move up to a bigger machine. Boo ya.

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:08 pm

Nobody lists all tasks associated with any job. The tasks you were assigned are all pretty common with a small family business. If they disclosed them to you up front would you have taken the job?

You are certainly worth more in your second season but the owner can only pay what the business will support. Negotiate and see what you can come up with but with the current upward mobility of the market, you should be attempting to move up yourself.

ragbagflyer · Post by **ragbagflyer** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:08 pm

I agree with philly and gr8gaza, all the tasks you listed are not unusual is anyway and are pretty much to be expected in the bush. Really you should have expected to be doing odd jobs, but if you were able to do them and make it through the season without damaging the 180 you do deserve a raise, especially with all the movement out there.

CGZMT · Post by **CGZMT** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:09 pm

Thanks for the help. Its just that some spots just expect the pilots to fly and other as you guys mentioned are the cheif bottle washer and odds and ends guy. I guess a call is in order to figure out what the are offering. Thanks again for the help!

viccoastdog · Post by **viccoastdog** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:50 pm

Hey CGZMT, it's actually spelled mandAtory

Sounds like you're going to be an asset to any operation with the experience you're getting.

jonnyfloats · Post by **jonnyfloats** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:20 pm

I am sorry my friend at first i thought "Those fuckers" why the hell should this guy have to do all their dirty laundry, and then i remembered. Its because there really are 1000 guys who would do it and never complain.

My advice to you is be happy with the experience, not only the flight time but all the rest of it as well. There's nothing wrong with having plenty to do and learning a few things on the way and some PIC FLOAT time.

I know this sounds retarded but those first few years on floats are really the best times of any pilots career and you'll miss them when they are gone.
Nothing wrong with tuning a few engines.

jjal · Post by **jjal** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:43 pm

CGZMT check your pm's

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:36 pm

I'd go somewhere else - you can do better.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:38 pm

I'd go somewhere else - you can do better.

IMHO, an old 180 is also the nicest float plane you will ever fly, you just don't know it yet. Beav comes next.

zero · Post by **zero** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:37 pm

Sounds like you were underpaid for one, also if there were others leaving as well vowing not to come back then your hunch about the employer was probably correct. Find another lodge that'll take you on as a Beaver driver, you've got enough hours now...I did the same with less float time last season, no regrets. You won't be happy otherwise.

bikeguy · Post by **bikeguy** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:45 am

I had to way in on this as I to have dealt with this vary same problem but only in a time when the industry was in shambles and guys with 10000hrs of float time were applying for jobs on a 180. That said time's have changed and the question you ask is very important for Professional Pilots to think about. The other guys are right it has been standard for a guy to help out with other duties when you work for a lodge and even a lot of charter operators have had these expectations. The question is it right! to ask someone who is a professional to take on all these other duties and not compensate them, just because the operator knows that they have the upper hand in the supply and demand game! I say NO! I have learned from trial and error that there is good and fair employers out there who do respect the work and skill it takes to become a professional Pilot and if they needed your help with other duties they would ask you and treat you with respect by compensating you and appreciating the extra work.

I say don't worry about what Plane you are going to fly this season or who is the highest bidder for your services, But look for an Employer who will treat you with respect and make you feel proud to be a Professional Pilot.

NWONT · Post by **NWONT** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:45 am

A professional is anyone who recieves compensation to perform his duties. If you stand on a street corner strumming your guitar and people throw coins in your open guitar case, you are a professional musician. Many times a small operater isn't bringing enough revenue to be able to pay a C180 driver $3500/mon so he will hire someone who is willing to get off his ass and do other camp duties to make the project sustainable. If you have the experience, skills and abilities to be marketable without doing these tasks, then you are a true professional, if not you are an intern. There are disagreeable areas with starting any career, many of these will make you a better person.

neechi · Post by **neechi** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:53 am

Get the fuk out. Lodge operators are the scum of the earth. Professional liars, "my lodge has northerns 8 feet long" . Its what they do, bullshit.

Go work for a charter outfit where your a pilot instead of "pilot and any other assigned duties". Its always cool to help around the dock ofcourse and do more than is expected but with these lodge owners they think they own you and total disrespect pilots.

The only person you "owe" anything too in this buisness is you. In this market the scum bags must pay $$$.

Oil Burner · Post by **Oil Burner** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:59 am

Sounds like you were flying just east of Little Grand Rapids! Don't be afraid to move on or ask for a raise. But better to move on up while you can. The industry is moving fast right now. It might not be moving next year. PM me if you are looking for a job (be prepared to work dock as well, I still do, hehe)

180 · Post by **180** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:49 am

With 600 TT and 400 on floats, you have lots of options. Give Mary Jane a call at Kenora Air Service. She can probably hook you up with a camp job in a 185 where your other-than-flying duties include making pizzas in a clay oven and cracking beers for the hotties in the hot tub.

You've paid your dues making $2000 a month doing all odd jobs. Now you can pay some dues making $3500 a month doing half those jobs.

Keep us posted...

CGZMT · Post by **CGZMT** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:20 pm

Will Do. Got a Call today from another lodge looking for a 180 pilot. Applied to him last year though. Still trying to get a hold of my employer last year but he must be fishing on his boat or living in his palace down in Florda.

bikeguy · Post by **bikeguy** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:05 pm

Neechi you hit the nail on the head it's about respect! That's what I meant about Having the attitude that you are a Proffessional and you do deserve respect! I realize that there is a lot of apprenticing involved in becoming a true Journeyman but I'll tell you one thing you shouldn't be getting it from some operator who has know clue what it's like to really make it happen in the cockpit with a full load on a really shitty day, just because they have disrespected are profession for so long does that make it right! I'm all for being a team player and doing my best to make the company I work for successful but NWONT if those operators can't afford to hire a laborer to do all those extra tasks he needs done then he should think about selling because when people pay the dollars I know they pay to go to some of these lodges,they can afford it. Pilots like NWONT are the main reason we as a group have not been getting the respect we deserve and it makes me sick to here a pilot have know respect for his own profession.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:32 pm

Well having read all these comments on pilots feeling they are not being shown respect because they are required to do other work besides fly the airplane, why do you apply for jobs with these companies?

" Pilots like NWONT are the main reason we as a group have not been getting the respect we deserve and it makes me sick to here a pilot have know respect for his own profession."

O.K. bikeguy you have your opinion on this and I believe NWONT has been flying the bush for a long time and he sees nothing unusual about doing other jobs besides flying and I started flying in the bush over forty years ago and see nothing unusual about a pilot doing other work besides flying ( which really is not all that hard anyhow ).

So tell us what your background as a pilot is that makes you deserve more respect than us?

I don't quite understand this ranting about being a " Professional Pilot " is that something like being a professional truck driver or a professional taxi cab driver?
Cat

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:43 pm

bikeguy, Respect is not bestowed upon a college or flying school grad with 200 hrs for simply being that. Respect is earned my friend and that comes from hard work, a willingness to go above and beyond and contribute to the success of the enterprise. Do those things willingly and your boss will have plenty of respect for you.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:11 pm

gr8gazu:

There is a preception among far to many of the graduates of todays flight training institutions that they are above work.

A good example was I was interviewing a class 4 instructor that had applied for a job in my flying school. During the interview I explained to him that he would be given one of the airplanes as his responsibility to ensure it was ready for flight each working day to ensure the windishield was clean and the interior clean and tidy and there was sufficient fuel and oil for the start of the day.

He said he was not prepared to do work that was the responsibility of aircraft mechanics as he was a pilot.

I had no choice but to thank him for his time and unfortunately I had no place for him in my company.

It was like water off a ducks back as he had the audacity to tell me I expected to much.

By the way I paid top money to my instructors including a base pay.

Go figure....

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:25 pm

Certainly, the current market conditions are not helping improve that attitude Cat. Expectations are high and a downturn in the economy will be disasterous to many that have just had it too good.

When I was newly licensed some of my contemporaries refused to leave the lower mainland for work let alone tune an outboaed motor. Those guys didn't last and I suspect neither will some of todays Prima Donnas.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:38 pm

The up side is there is no shortage of pilots being churned out of the schools so the law of averages sort out who makes it and who gets left behind....and like you say the industry is down far more often than up.

I am unable to wrap my mind around this " we are professionals B.S. though".

Hell I've been at it for a long long time and consider myself a mechanic and pilot with enough references and background to make money for either me or my employer or both...which is what it is all about. Never ever made the mistake of thinking the job was anymore than just another form of operating and fixing equipment.