Float training.... :?

[Beacon Final]

OK, so I am looking for a place to do a float rating.

Not sure if I am going to do the 50hr or min course.
Which is better? Is the 50 hr just a industry cash grab...?

Anyone know of a good place in Ont, besides Georgian Air?
Looking for someone who owns a plane or whatever and does
training for cheaper than average.

Or does anyone from BC, have a opinion on Air Hart in YLW or YYJ?

Any help would be nice........ because I might change my
name to Dazed and Confused or Oh man should I have been a dentist?


thanks

3 green

[jimmyjazz]

Try sudbury aviation very good worththe drive.
PM me if you want more info

[Right Seat Captain]

Unless you've got someone's float plane to fly, 8 hours of float time will be of no use to you. Most companies require minimum 50 houts to fly their floats. Same thing goes for renting; there are very few places that rent float planes, but those who do, make 50 hours the minimum to keep the insane insurance people happy.

[flight27]

50 or nothing. It's worth the money. Some places will even let you rent the plane so you can get some PIC time.

[tusky]

My brother did his rating at air georgian and from what he experienced that place is crap and the owner is crap to. I did my rating at air hart and it was great. After 5 hours they let you solo and they did feed you any line about how easy it is to get a job after. Air Georgian is all dual hours no PIC.

[lowandslow]

Thompson Air Services does a good job on float training located near Trenton...

[Cat Driver]

K :

Do you think that dual is not superior to solo for learning how to fly bush planes?

Maybe you would be better off with all dual, rather than attempting to teach yourself?

Then when you finish your training it was all learning from someone that can teach you.

Remember if you already know how to do it you do not need dual.

Or to look at it another way, with yourself as teacher what do you really have?

Cat

[Right Seat Captain]

If I can throw my two cents in...

I think having more dual time is not at all bad if you have the right instructor. But it is a proven fact that people learn better on their own. The best way to balance dual and individual learning, is supervised solo. I think in any situation, not just learning floats, going out on your own and learning yourself sticks in your mind much longer than having someone there telling you pointers and suggestions all the time. You have to learn to think for yourself, and not get comfortable having an instructor there to save you all the time.

[Cat Driver]

Conversley R.S.C. , flying floats brings many different skils into your flying and when applying for your first job showing a very in depth training regiment with a recognized high time bush pilot will impress the person you are applying to for a job with more than showing that you spent half your time teaching your self.

Remember pilots who are looking for their first job need to demonstrate they have been trained in the needed skils.

Once you get that first job you start the long road of learning by experience on your own.

I am only giving you a different slant on this subject based on my own personal experience hiring pilots and a life time of learning, so as to allow you to select what is best for your future.

Not to be deliberately argumentative.

Remember I am on the other side of this issue, I am leaving the industry due to being close to time expired, not just starting.


The trick for you young guys is to find a good instructor that will be recognized by the industry.......

Cat Driver.

[Right Seat Captain]

Point well taken Cat, but a question to you:

If you have Mr. Joe Shmo Float pilot teaching with 50 hours, is it better to fly with him more, or better to get some time on your own, given the choice? I'm just thinking that as nice it would be to have a name that the industry recognizes, not everybody has that opportunity. For examply I live in Ottawa, and if I was constrained by money to conduct my float rating here, I know I'd have little choices of places to train. And that place deson't have any recognized names.

Of course I'm looking at this from a strictly general training point of view. I do not have, or plan to get a float rating anytime soon, since it's just not the path I'm taking. In fact I've never been in a float plane, although I'd like to. I do help the guys down on our relatively new dock on the Ottawa River when I can (as a side note, was apparently Canada's first float base, claims the National Aviation Museum).

I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for not getting a float rating.

[Cat Driver]

Hey, I sure would not recommend Mr. J. Shmoe with 50 hours as your mentor.

However there are float plane companies that not only fly the bush , but offer training with their experienced pilots.

Also I understand your point about flying by your self.

You do admit that there is no solo for the multi engine rating or the IFR rating?

The important thing that I am trying to point out is find a bush operator that also teaches float plane flying......

The puppy mill type flying school usually do not have high time bush pilots working for them.

Cat.

[Right Seat Captain]

You do admit that there is no solo for the multi engine rating or the IFR rating?

Yes of course I admit that, How can I dispute that?

The puppy mill type flying school usually do not have high time bush pilots working for them.

This I know, the instructors for floats we have at our school are fresh 50 hour float pilots.

But the question still remains. If I had no choice (money constraints) to do my float rating here in Ottawa, would you suggest flying extra dual, or getting more solo, if you had to choose one or the other. I'm just curious which you think is more valuable.

[Cat Driver]

R.S.C. :

If the insrtructor was inexperienced I would advise you to fly solo and save the extra money.

Cat.

[skywagon]

You have to learn the basics to fly floats from a experienced person. You also have to have some solo element to learn from your mistakes. Try finding something like a PA-12 to rent and really hone your skills. If you fly dual with someone later as your skills develop, they can put the pressure on a bit, to make you land and take-off in tighter spots; and maybe docking/ beaching the plane on rivers etc. Know what you want out of your training and ask lots of questions before you dish out money. Somebody mentioned Thompson Air Service; the plane is based in Deseronto and the owner lives in Selby, Ont. Just adding my thoughts...

[justplanecrazy]

If you are seriously considering flying floats and don't own your own floatplane, plan on taking a 50hr coarse. The only thing a 7 hour float coarse will do for you is give you another rating for your resume and 7 hours of enjoyment. It takes 50 plus hours to become a competant floatplane pilot. Insurance companies generally won't allow float planes to be rented without 50hrs experience and no commercial operation will consider hiring or be able to hire a floatplane pilot with less than 50hrs.

That being said, I also consider the 7 hour float plane rating to be way too lenient. If no insurance company feels safe enough to rent a floatplane to a 7hr pilot, then why allow a rating to be done in seven hours? Thats like a flight school that will allow someone to go for a one hour solo flight in order to get their first solo, but then not allow them to go solo again until they've put in 50 hrs. If this were the case, first solo's wouldn't be happening at 12hrs so why are they still allowing first solos in a float plane at 6 hours dual?

It's like learning to fly all over again but actually learning how to fly. It takes a lot of skill and plan on spending at least 50hrs to obtain these skills.

As far as really learning how to fly a float plane, go to the westcoast. Here you can experience moving water, tides, mountains, weather, swells, variable winds, etc. To learn to fly a floatplane in the flatlands is like learning to ride a bike with training wheels.

Overall a floatplane rating is an amazing experience and will teach you how to become a real pilot.

[TheHub]

I can highly recommend a place on Rice Lake, just outside of Peterborough. It's called Elmhirst Vacation Air.
The guy you'll be flying with has about 3-4000 hours on the PA-12 that rented for $175/hour last summer. They also have a 185 for $350/hour and a 206 for $450 (floats) or $350 (wheels).
This place provides amazing training from people who have thousands of hours of real life float flying experience.
Feel free to PM me for more info.
Also, Right Seat Captain...there is a school out of Carp airport that does some good float training, can't remember the name of it, but they have a 180 on amphibs. Some of their instructors are the 50 hour guys from the last season, but some have more experience, you might want to check into them if you'd like to stay close to home!

[It's the Pitts]

I thought that it was only 7 hrs to get the float rating on your 7 -40.ooo $ piece of paper.

I know a guy who did the 50 hrs course and really enjoyed it. The thing is he had time to build for his commercial licence. Now he is working in a freight office in Saskatchewan.

I've also heard that some companies don't want you to do any training before hand. They say they want to train you the way they want.

[phillyfan]

I believe the name of that school in Carp is West Capital Aviation. I know a few guys who wanted to do some float flying with them. They tried for a couple weeks just to try and get somebody to return their phone calls and e-mails. Then finally went somewhere else. Do they still operate floatplanes? There website does not seem to mention them anymore.
Myself I have not heard of any companies who would frown upon anybody who had more float time. The 50 hrs will not impress your employer but it may be what it takes to impress the insurance company. Also with 50 hours tooling around without a purpose on sunny days in another part of the country your employer is still going to have to teach you how he wants things done.
It sucks that a person is pretty much forced now to pay for that kind of time. I suppose one should know what path they intend to take and as previously mentioned, build time towards their commercial on floats.

[Right Seat Captain]

philly, West Capital conducts float training through other schools. I am quite surprised to hear they did not return your calls. At Rockcliffe, our float training is done with West Capital Aviation, as well as our multi engine training. Basically West Capital provides the aircraft, we provide the instructors. If you're having trouble getting through directly to them, talk to the CFI/Ops Manager at Rockcliffe, or PM me for more info.

[Beacon Final]

Thanks boys and girls (maybe)

I have never put up a post that has done so well....

Right now I am looking at Air Hart in YLW b/c its all year round. Anyone know how long 50 hours takes? Like how many days or weeks? Can you do any IFR????

Yea I am dumb and green, I know I know....

Or a private owner (ahem! Philly flyer!!) or maybe even Sudbury ON, told they have a good school and you can camp there.....

Hey Right Seat, what does it take to be a instructor at Rockcliff? Any openings?

Thanks again guys

[ROUNDPOUNDER]

Float pilot training consists of handling the a/c on the water, hopefully in many different conditions, take offs, landings, learning to read water and winds. docking in winds. There is no IFR. If there is any long cross country training flights you are wasting your time. A fifty hour float pilot has no business training anyone.

[Right Seat Captain]

There is no IFR.

I would have to agree, I have yet to see and IFR approach into water.

If there is any long cross country training flights you are wasting your time. A fifty hour float pilot has no business training anyone.

Admittedly, I am no float pilot, nor do I plan to be, but I can think of some uses for those fifty hours.

I agree that float training need not be about full X-countries, but what about planning trips to small remote lakes. as a student, I would hope to get some landing, take-off and taxi experience from numerous different lakes, rivers... And it can take time to get there. I suppose there can be the issue of going to an unfamiliar place and finding an approprate lake to land in. And if I have a well known experienced bush pilot as an instructor, as Cat and others suggest, I think those full 50 hours would be extremely valuable to adding to my skills.

There is a reason most insurance companies want 50 hours, you just learn so much in those 50 hours.

[Crazed Windscreen]

Gentlemen...

All this talk about float training and I just have to put my 2 cents in.

My first float job I flew about 25 hours of dual on the line with the CP before being cut loose doing camp checks and garbage runs. After 50 hours we did another line check for the day and then they let me fly thier clients. Those 50 hours were pricless to me and the owner. He got to see me work the airplane in an operating enviroment, and I learned my way around the country. Gave me alot of confidence. I only had 11 hours of float time previous to that.

This is the way to train a float pilot. An instructor with no line time is not who you want to teach you if you want to fly floats as a career. An instructor is ok if you want to fly to the cottage on Sundays but not if you want to fly floats for a career. Get a guy who does it to put food on the table and you will learn how to survive.

Keep it in the green boys.

[phillyfan]

I agree with you ROUNDPOUNDER, with everything except saying that Float flying should include no IFR. I don't think there should be IFR training in your initial float training but I certainly see no problem being taught that this is a definite possibility (unexpectedly ending up in cloud) I don't know anybody who's flown floats for even one full season that has not found themselves deep in the shit. In fact CFIT is a major problem in the world of float flying. I’ve had several friends who have piled an airplane in after encountering Instrument conditions beyond there capabilities. IFR flying is a relatively simple thing unless you find yourself in a piston Beaver or Otter being pushed lower and lower until you finally find yourself with no other option but to resort to your 1950’s Dehavilland instrument technology.

[Cat Driver]

Well there is IFR on amphibious aircraft we do it all the time.

In fact there are countries where I could not get a VRF clearance to depart the airport, the last time was Luxor Egypt to Alexandria, it took two days to get a VFR routing and when we contacted ground we were informed we either accept an IFR clearance or no go.

As to IFR on straight floats we did that every day at Air West Airlines in Vancouver with Twin Otters on straight floats and we flew the whole west coast IFR with the Turbo Goose.... In fact all flights from Vancouver to Victoria were center filed IFR. For the approach we shot the ILS at Victoria and once visual broke off for Victoria or if the ceiling and vis were to low we could land in Pat bay. On the Victoria to Vancouver run we did the ILS at YVR and either turned and landed the river after contact or flew around Point Grey and into the Harbour.

A proper 50 hour course is to fly every day in exactly the same way you will in the bush. That is my method and I even throw in the log buying kind of work.

So most every kind of flying can be found on floats..............if you find the right place to learn that is........

Cat Driver: