Pilot Guild?

Amateur Turbines · Post by **Amateur Turbines** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:01 pm

What do you think about starting a Guild or College that pays and treats pilots as they should be treated and payed?

I could write a fuckin book on the rules and regs that would be required to accommodate all perspectives that would be involved in doing so but what do think should be some of the main highlights?

Should we pay flight instructors better so that people with more than 250 hours are lured into that position?

Should we offer navajo effo's more than 12000 a year while working a hundred hours a month?

Should we pay 777 Captains 200000/year?

Let loose I wanna hear the comments.

There is a massive gap in Canada and it is wrong!

Just so you know, I'm not a newbie and I've been considering this for a long time. I think that if there was enough interest and support we might actually be able to make a difference in the way that pilots are treated in Canada! TC and industry have ruined us enough NOW GRAB YOUR BALLS AND DO A DANCE! ENOUGH IS FUCKIN ENOUGH NO MORE $55 SHIT NO MORE 12000/YEAR NO MORE WORK 7 YEARS TO TAKE A PAY CUT? WTFFFFFFFF

Captain CADORS · Post by **Captain CADORS** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:16 am

niss · Post by **niss** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:53 am

I definately think that instructors should make more, but figure out how to do it with out doubling the cost of flight training. The PPL can allready cost as much as a couple of years of college tuition.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:29 am

" but figure out how to do it with out doubling the cost of flight training. "

The cost of flight training will not double if the instructors can give the training in 50 hours instead of 100 hours.

More pay will attract better instructors.

happily.retired · Post by **happily.retired** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:43 am

Aahhh, a utopian pilot society. If only!

If you could honnestly provide a plan that could work and be profitable I'm quite certain virtually everyone one of us would join forces with you, but that's a whopper of an if.

Amateur Turbines · Post by **Amateur Turbines** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:15 pm

This is how it works..

First every commercial pilot must join the guild.

Next in order to operate there needs to be a list that incorporates experience levels and where pilots with that experience should fly.

The next thing to do is have all of the companies in Canada that want to hire a pilot apply to the guild. The guild will take all of the jobs required and offer this list to qualified pilots those pilots then go and interview at said company.

Next the company hires pilot from guild and then pays guild structured amount for that position. The Guild then takes the pay from the company and lumps it into one big comfy pile o cash. The guild then after determining what that pilot is worth pays said pilot.

Example Air Canada pays guild 200000 per year for 777 captain, guild pays 777 captain 175000. Still a fair wage but now 25000 can go towards our bottom end FO's and instead of making 12000 a year you can offer them a wage that would be more reasonable.

I realize the implications of this is massive and no one likes to think about losing money at the top end. But we would also be able to stop the shit employers in their tracks and hopefully bring the bottom end up to a level so that we wouldn't require skimming off the top end.

That's it in a nutshell. Obviously this would need to be legislated and worked over but the concept is there.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:20 pm

No one should be able to dictate who I can and can't hire or how much I have to pay. I invested my money in my company therefore the decisions should be mine.

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:51 pm

Amateur Turbines wrote:
The Guild then takes the pay from the company and lumps it into one big comfy pile o cash.

Nope. That would be a guild as run by the NDP. Sorry but the feds won'teven let me do that with my "at home" wife for tax purposes.

Example Air Canada pays guild 200000 per year for 777 captain, guild pays 777 captain 175000. Still a fair wage but now 25000 can go towards our bottom end FO's and instead of making 12000 a year you can offer them a wage that would be more reasonable.
The company has already determined what the salary should be according to your plan. Why then do we need a middle man to intercept those funds and redistribute them as the guild sees fit? In your examle, the salary is for a 777 skipper, not the 777 skipper a DHC-2 pilot and an instructor.

I realize the implications of this is massive and no one likes to think about losing money at the top end. But we would also be able to stop the shit employers in their tracks and hopefully bring the bottom end up to a level so that we wouldn't require skimming off the top end.
That's it in a nutshell. Obviously this would need to be legislated and worked over but the concept is there.

There are very few senior guys that would buy into this plan. Any plan that causes salaries to increase dramatically will not work for the operators. We just need specific minimum salaries that are established by the guild so there is no undercutting at the expense of the professional pilot. If all had to pay the salaries, it levels the playing field for contract bidding etc.

stef · Post by **stef** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:20 pm

Might I suggest Economics 101. The pay is what it is because there are plenty willing to accept it. If you don't like it, go get a real job.

Amateur Turbines · Post by **Amateur Turbines** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:26 pm

I agree with you gr8gazu that no one in there right mind that is making 200000 right now is going to say here ya little skipper have fun. The problem is though is that unless the overhead is brought down in aviation, companies can't afford to pay their pilots what there worth. Only in the mid-size to large company levels are owners reaping the rewards.

Dust Devil you sound like an owner maybe /operator in your opinion could you really pay a pilot at the entry level what you honestly think there worth and still make a profit?

Skipper · Post by **Skipper** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:04 pm

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:11 pm

Amateur Turbines wrote:
Dust Devil you sound like an owner maybe /operator in your opinion could you really pay a pilot at the entry level what you honestly think there worth and still make a profit?

How do you determine what an employee is worth? From a buisiness point of view you look for the most economical option. If you can operate efficiantly offering a givin salary then that is what the job should pay. If a company can hire a pilot at $30k/year or 60k/year who are equally qualified and if your turnover costs you less then 30k/year then it makes no sence to pay the higher salary. For profit companies exist for the primary purpose of turning a profit for the investors. Employment is a secondary benefit.

Maybe all the pilots who make less then what the feel they are worth should start up a non profit company who's mandate is to pay 50% higher wages than industry standard.

Offset · Post by **Offset** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:20 pm

I like the idea, but many of the same factors that cause problems now would prevent the idea from ever getting off the ground.

Most operators work with such a thing profit margin that they would not be able to pay pilots much more than they are already. To pay pilots more the cost would have to be passed on to the consumer. In some cases the consumer would be willing to accept the increase, in most they would not. For example, tourists that use a service once a year might now only be able to afford it once every two years, Buisness travellers might choose to spend more time in a particular city in one stay, rather than make two trips, and so on.

Not to mention the ones that would choose to operate outside of the system, both pilots and operators.

It is essentially the same reason that most operators work without a union.

YACdirect · Post by **YACdirect** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:02 am

What do you think will happen with all the pilots in ALPA or that already belong to another union? You'd be asking all unionized pilots to abandon their CBA in favour of joining your "guild" which, by the way, needs a name a little less gay.

What if I said "to heck with the guild" and went out to a company that also said "to heck with the guild" and said company hired me? Why would any pilot choose to join something that (at the higher end) cut their pay? Why would any company join up if it meant their costs increase? How can you enforce this guild without a legal foundation on which to do so?

You'd have to mandate that sort of utter control into the CARs... heaven forbid the day the CARs (ahem... TC) control EVERYTHING in aviation. Thankfully we as pilots and operators still ahve some choice.

Personally I would much sooner join ALPA than something like this, but that's just me.

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:47 am

These ideas have been proposed before-- seems to come up every year perhaps it's the dawn of spring and fidgetty pilots with wives or girlfriends who are still deep in the winter hibernation phase.

Most of these grand suggestions are, unfortunately, still-born. So at the risk of minimalizing your suggestion, may I suggest that the problem is in promotion of the idea . . . so I suggest a revolutionary (pun intented) approach to this.

See below:

"Canadian Pilot Guild. Darkening the skies of your local aerodrome soon!!!"

"Pilots of Canada-- UNITE!!! Join the Canadian Pilot Guild-- NOW!!!"

“We have today 1,000,000 members. Our goal is to have 3,000,000 members in Canadian Pilot Guild by 14 July. You should be in the ranks of the 3,000,000!”

“3,000,000 members in Canadian Pilot Guild by 14 July–you should be among them! (or else)

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:06 am

stef wrote:Might I suggest Economics 101. The pay is what it is because there are plenty willing to accept it. If you don't like it, go get a real job.

Maybe you are just a little slower on the uptake than most stef but it sounds like you now grasp the problem that those seeking a union, association or guild are trying to fix.

mbav8r · Post by **mbav8r** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:09 am

turbine wrote:

Example Air Canada pays guild 200000 per year for 777 captain, guild pays 777 captain 175000. Still a fair wage but now 25000 can go towards our bottom end FO's and instead of making 12000 a year you can offer them a wage that would be more reasonable.

I think most missed the point, the lower end operators are not paying more. They keep paying what they pay and the guild makes up the short comings from the money they take off the higher end. My thoughts would be take a little less than 25,000 off the top and get legislation that you're only taxed on the the remaining salary(ie;190,000) because the lower end guys salary you are supplementing will be taxed as income.

One problem I see already though, is small operators taking advantage, by lowering what they pay because, well the guild will make up for it.

All good ideas have some bugs to work out, but I like it.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:47 am

I hear China is still communist...

stuckmike · Post by **stuckmike** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:33 am

In my opinion I think the fundamental problem with initiating a guild or association is that the majority of pilots feel/think that there is a competion between each other. Compete to get that first ramp/instructing job. Compete to get on the line/bag run first and so on. The problem in making a stand is that will find you unemployed in a real big hurry. It's not necessarily the owner operators fault, it's more the fact that if I won't accept these wages or conditions, someone else will. Unless we instill some sense of cooperation and brotherhood(sisterhood) in our ranks we are stuck on the path and it will never change.

I would like to think it would be best to start at the top down but I think the battle from the long-time established airline types would be a tough one. Memories become a little fuzzy, enough battles have been fought on their watch during their career on a personal level. Kind of a " I did it.... your turn."

Grass roots would be the only way. Unfortunately as stated before...margins are slim and unless you get 100% participation...."guild" members will slit their own throats.

I've done fairly well for myself without whoring out my skills too much but "whoring" and "skills" should not have to be used when describing a professional career path in any profession.

My only worry is that something is initiated...it needs to be 100% effective, have 100% participation and be 100% enforceable. If not... we'll be in worse shape than we are now.

Just my misc ramblings...I'll go back to my non-posting ways now.

stef · Post by **stef** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:01 am

http://homepages.stmartin.edu/fac_staff ... _notes.htm

See chapter 4.

Falsely keeping wages high through a union, forces the public to pay more to fly which causes the public to fly less, which means fewer pilots are required. Not my idea of utopia, but good luck in your quest all the same. Let me know how it works out for you.

1000 HP · Post by **1000 HP** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:04 am

Guild? Nah! Unions suck. Been there. Just a bunch of fat cats (not you cat driver..) sucking the life out of your paychecks. Rules for this, rules for that. Transport has enough rules, lets leave it at that. Anything that would further reduce my freedom I am opposed to.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:05 am

That's some sweet stuff, Panama Jack! I wish I could buy some of those posters!

For those who are wondering where Panama Jack got the pics:

http://dictatorshipoftheair.com/browse/poster-gallery

-istp

200hr Wonder · Post by **200hr Wonder** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:17 pm

I think there is no need for this Guild to be the money movers and shakers. They just need to be mandatory like the Teachers College or the College of Physicans. That way as a smaller operator must hire from the Guild they must pay a fair wage. Of course all things would be negotiable so that both operator and pilot would get a fair shake.

And DD I understand your concern as an operator but if every pilot said no I think in order to live I need more money then you would have no choice to pay it if you wanted to hire a pilot. This would of course not put you at a disadvantage to the competition because guess what every operator would be faced with a similar increase thus normalizing a pay structure that is currently out of touch with realty.

There also needs to be professional development where by the pilot profession can be advanced. For example they could work at developing new instructor guide lines.

A lobby group to help keep bad legislation off the books (The new approach ban anyone) and to help bring in good legislation that helps with safety.

Really the goal of this organization would have to be something like the following:

To represent professional pilots and work with operators to ensure safe, professional airlines where all parties are treated with respect.

The organization must be willing to work with operators and do what is best for both parties not just themselves! It is imperative that any group works for the betterment of the industry not just for them selves.

Odysseus · Post by **Odysseus** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:04 pm

I don't think participation in this "guild" should be manditory, pilots should be free to join, or not. The union needs to prove its worth to its members. I've seen unions in which participation was manditory become huge bureaucratic entities; we need to avoid this, this should be a fund for pilots by pilots, not paid for by pilots for bureaucratic fat-cats.
If such a pilot association existed, it would need to have the following mandate:
Promote safety in aviation and enforce the fair treatment of pilots in Canada.

These are the top points I think should be adressed:
1. Ensure no commercial pilot with a full time flying job makes less than minimum wage; work with operators to determine a fair salary for different experience levels.
2. Represent participating pilots when they are faced with law suits, by providing lawyers specialized in aviation law.
3. Ensure pilots receive the required initial and recurrent trainning on company aircraft at no cost to them (outlaw buying PPCs).
4. Change legislation to outlaw unsafe, but presently legal practices in the aviation industry.

Basically the way it could work is by running a fund in which participating pilots would donnate a tax deductable yearly fee (which would not be fixed according to salary, everyone pays the same amount), in return these pilots would benifit from legal representation paid for by the fund when faced with law suits from either TC or an operator; some sort of life insurance in case of a crash or incident would be nice too.
The fund would also help in lobbying governement in order to outlaw certain practices in the industry which are presently legal, but unsafe; such as being on call 24h a day.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:23 pm

200hr Wonder wrote:
And DD I understand your concern as an operator but if every pilot said no I think in order to live I need more money then you would have no choice to pay it if you wanted to hire a pilot.

And that would be fair because the market would dictate the price. But to have some external organization dictating to me how much I have to pay is not fair regardess if it would apply to the entire industry.

The trouble for pilots is there is still even in this booming economy more pilots than jobs. The only way I can see getting pilots up to a professional salary is to make the training process more inline with real professions. Thus reducing the number of pilots on the market.

Pilot Guild?

Pilot Guild?

Tough Times