Porter's USA Application stalled

teacher · Post by **teacher** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:21 am

I sure hope things work out. I think someone mentioned this in a previous posting somewhere about having to offer reciprocating rights which would surely eat up the TCCA slot allotments. I'm very curious how this one will unfold.

On February 28, 2006 Jazz was forced to suspend service to Toronto City Centre Airport (YTZ) after receiving a 30-day eviction notice from City Centre Aviation Limited. Last July, Jazz announced that operations from TCCA would recommence on August 28th as it had secured a lease with Stolport Corporation. In early August, Jazz was once again forced to delay the reinstatement of service to TCCA as a result of the Toronto Port Authority's refusal to consent to the sublease between Jazz and Stolport Corporation, thereby preventing Jazz from securing facilities from which to operate. Over the past several months Jazz has continued to vigorously pursue the ability to resume service out of TCCA.

In early February 2007, the application to the Federal Court was dismissed on a procedural technicality. Jazz appealed the decision and continues to pursue legal recourses to seek fair and equal access to this public facility.

On February 27, 2007 Porter Airlines filed an application with the U.S. Department of Transportation for permission to begin service between TCCA and New York in April 2007. In response to Porter's application, Air Canada on behalf of Jazz filed a submission with the U.S. federal agency on March 2, arguing that access to the TCCA is not open and is not being offered in a manner that is consistent with the 1995 U.S. -Canada bilateral air service agreement. Air Canada urged the Department to not approve Porter's application until it receives from both the Government of Canada and the Toronto Port Authority appropriate assurances that carriers other than Porter will be permitted to serve TCCA on fair and non-discriminatory terms. Also, Continental Airlines and US Airways each filed representations urging the U.S. Department of Transportation to secure firm assurances that U.S. carriers will be accorded access to TCCA on a open, fair and non-discriminatory basis before awarding Porter any authority to offer service between TCCA and any point in the United States. These recent developments further support Air Canada's claim against the Toronto Port Authority's conduct and the desire to ensure fair and equal access to a public facility. Air Canada will pursue this matter through all appropriate avenues and remain committed to returning to the TCCA as soon as possible.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:32 am

That whole deal is pretty stupid. I don't know how the TCCA is getting away with only allowing Porter to operate, especially when its a publicly funded airport. If thats the case and they want to operate privately then I want a petition to stop my tax dollars from supporting the "Deluce's Airport".

Is Porter still getting their pilots to sign a $25G bond? (promissary note, samething)

Cheers,

Loc

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:36 pm

Actually I beleive the TCCA told AirCanada that they could continue there present service (pre-porter) but they were not allowed to expand out of the City centre just to sewer a start up, which of course is what AC wanted to do.

If you don't believe me then why has Jazz/AC all but stopped service out the island until porter started?

I say good on the TCCA, they had a new airline willing to locate there and they used there power to stop the usual BS of others trying to sink them right away!!

Vickers vanguard · Post by **Vickers vanguard** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:17 pm

whipline wrote: I say good on the TCCA, they had a new airline willing to locate there and they used there power to stop the usual BS of others trying to sink them right away!!

well said ! to hell the big red bully !

Pith Helmet · Post by **Pith Helmet** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:32 pm

whipline wrote: If you don't believe me then why has Jazz/AC all but stopped service out the island until porter started?

Uhhhh, because they were evicted? By one of Deluce's companies too...shocking.

On February 28, 2006 Jazz was forced to suspend service to Toronto City Centre Airport (YTZ) after receiving a 30-day eviction notice from City Centre Aviation Limited.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:01 pm

WHIPLINE .....

I don't think you really know what you're talking about, im sorry to say. But it is not the TCCA's job to govern airlines or the business. They are there to manage the day to day operations of the airport. Not dictate where or how an airline operates out of there field, especially a public airport funded by the people. Last I checked AC/Jazz pay the same taxes as Porter, and the rest of the people/business in this country.

As Pith Helmet said ... Jazz was evicted ... as the Deluces requested. So should we rename TCCA .. "Deluce Field"? .. how about "R. Deluce International"?

Cheers,

Loc

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:31 pm

Actually Loc you have no idea what you are talking about. First off the Island airport isn't funded by tax payers its part of the the Port Authority. Secondly AirOntario used to have a heavy sched out of the island and over the years slowly dwindled it down to pretty much nothing. Jazz was not "kicked" out of the island they were kicked out of their space which was owed by the Deluces.

The Port Authority didn't kick Jazz out..they simply said you can't increase your flights now that another airline wants to start up. In other words, if we weren't good enough for you before porter then were not going to be good enough for you now. The Port Authority wants to keep a steady stream of income and its not going to happen if Jazz puts them out of business then leaves YTZ again.

How much has Jazz contributed to the new bridge/terminal? How hard did Jazz fight in toronto city hall to keep the airport open? AC had years to produce a product out of the island and they didn't, so why now?

Once again good for the airport for sticking up to AC and the BS.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:19 pm

WHIPLINE .....

Again ...... The TCCA has no right to govern what business an airline does. They manage the day to day operation and only the day to day operation. They can't restrict airlines on how or where they operate. As for a bridge to or from the Island ... why is that the operators responsiblity? ... A publicly funded airport asking businesses to contribute to there project is BS. Jazz and Porter will operate fine with the ferry service ... and for what the TCCA charges for that service to the passengers ... they should be making money on the ferry.

I, and im sure a lot of other people believe the same ... the TCCA should keep there nose out of AC/Jazz and Porters business and stick to running the airport. There are other agencies that handle the business aspects, if Porter believes they are being railroaded.

Cheers,

Loc

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:19 am

Robert Deluce is no idiot.

Before launching this venture he secured a CTA ruling that the TCCA was a common market with Pearson. That means the available slots out of the island are not considered separate from Pearson. Since Big Red already owns the majority of slots out of Pearson, Porter can (and does) own the majority of slots off the island. If Jazz wants more slots off the island they will have to give up slots at Pearson. In other words, Jazz has been hoisted on their own pitard.

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:37 am

Loc its not a publicly funded airport!!!!!!!!!!!! The airport is a business and they are trying to secure long term cash and if that gets in the way of AC/Jazz then tough shit!!

You never answered my questions..Where was AC/Jazz during the TCCA debate at city hall? Why isn't jazz contributing to the new bridge/terminal? If AC thinks the Island airport is such a great place now why did they reduce their flights to almost nil during the past 15 years? Why didn't AC buy/secure hanger space over the past decades?

Its pretty simple...look at all the wealth within 10 miles of YTZ. AC stopped capatalizing on it and someone else came in. Now AC/Jazz wants a piece of something they didn't care about before and won't care about if porter shuts down.

Jazz wasn't kicked out of the airport, they were simply told they were not allowed to expand on their current schedule. If they had 5 flights a day previous to porter then they were still given 5 flights a day after Porter started. It was Jazz that pulled the plug.

Good for the Port Authority for sticking up to AC's BS. I don't work for Porter but I can spot BS a mile away, sometimes 2!!

yycguy · Post by **yycguy** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:47 am

There is more to this than just slot times out of the island. Jazz was evicted from their ground facilities and then banned from securing new ones:

"HALIFAX, Aug. 8 /CNW/ - Air Canada Jazz has been forced to delay plans to reinstate scheduled service on August 28, 2006, at the Toronto City Centre Airport due to the intransigent actions of the Toronto Port Authority (TPA). The TPA has refused to approve the sublease between Jazz and Stolport Corporation, thereby preventing Jazz from securing facilities from which to operate."

The Toronto Port Authority has been flagrantly breaking federal law by denying a free market environment and supporting a monopoly.

"In fact, by the TPA's own admission in a letter publicly released on July 26, 2006, the Authority has entered into an agreement with another airline (Porter Airlines) which limits the activity of carriers at Toronto City Centre Airport except one."

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:04 pm

yycguy wrote:There is more to this than just slot times out of the island. Jazz was evicted from their ground facilities and then banned from securing new ones:

"HALIFAX, Aug. 8 /CNW/ - Air Canada Jazz has been forced to delay plans to reinstate scheduled service on August 28, 2006, at the Toronto City Centre Airport due to the intransigent actions of the Toronto Port Authority (TPA). The TPA has refused to approve the sublease between Jazz and Stolport Corporation, thereby preventing Jazz from securing facilities from which to operate."

The Toronto Port Authority has been flagrantly breaking federal law by denying a free market environment and supporting a monopoly.

"In fact, by the TPA's own admission in a letter publicly released on July 26, 2006, the Authority has entered into an agreement with another airline (Porter Airlines) which limits the activity of carriers at Toronto City Centre Airport except one."

And there is much, much, much more to this than what you read in this article. On the eve of Miller's election Jazz sent a letter to the Port Authority requesting permission to use jets off he Island. Miller's only issue that got him elected was his promise to cancel the bridge which would, at the time, cancel Deluce's plans for the airport. This letter was "somehow" leaked to the media and was used by Miller to cement the fears in the waterfront voters minds. Jazz knows perfectly well they can't use jets to why would they ask? Well, seem a high official in Miller's campaign team was no other than Peter Donolo, who prior to that job was a senior executive in Air Canada's communications department. Now who do you suppose put Jazz up to asking to use jets?

This is just one example of the dirty tricks and BS that Jazz has subjected the Port Authority to. The Port Authority has to make a profit and the only way they can do that is by having rent paying tenants on their property. Jazz/AC has been slowly screwing the TPA over the years so now that they have a company on site that actually makes their own existence viable it's no wonder they aren't about to bend over backward to help Jazz.

There is a lot of bad history there so don't bleed for Jazz.

pointyertoes · Post by **pointyertoes** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:58 pm

Whipline and Rocky are spot on in their understanding of the facts in this ongoing drama.

You can tell who the uninformed (and possibly insecure) Jazz, AC and or WJ guys are by the way they spout AC's boilerplate legal press releases as if it were investigative journalism.
(Check the source of the news release at the top of this thread: who runs YYZ News anyway?)

It's really as simple as this:

How can Porter have a 'monopoly' on a facility no other airline gave a shit about a year ago.
Porter fully committed itself as a partner to the rebuilding of infrastructure and revitalization of the airport.
No other carrier was willing to invest a dime to do the same.
Jazz/AC was given opportunities to relocate on the airport and continue their existing schedule.
They refused when they realized they couldn't acquire the slots to copy Porters exact schedule, to try and muscle them out of business.
Jazz/AC lost their last court appeal on this very issue.
The judge tossed it out and called the filing a frivolous use of the courts.

The predatory tactics (fare cutting, frivolous law suits, collusion with other big carries to delay a US DOT license etc.) that Jazz/AC is using is to be expected and in a way reassuring because it likely means that they consider Porter a credible threat in this niche market.

For Air Canada to argue that Porter has any kind of competitive advantage in this market is nothing less than mind-blowing hypocrisy.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:57 pm

This really isn't going to change my life or make me rich by any stretch so I don't really care. But its BS (your fav. word there whipline) that Porter can operate out of YTZ but nobody else can, and I don't just mean AC/Jazz. Because even US Airways and Continental are pissed off enough to file a petition. (or let me guess big red and all its might got those monster airlines on-board?)

Truth is Porter wants to be "The Only" airline to operate out of YTZ and they're paying TCCA enough money to try and keep it that way. Im not going to say that AC/Jazz are innocent in all of this ... They do exactly what you say and we all now that. But again ... isn't Porter just as bad now? Now you've become what you hate? Business is business and if you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen ... its cut-throat and always has been ... always will be.

It's a matter of time and you'll see Jazz back in the island .... maybe a few more carriers now too.

Cheers,

Loc

yycguy · Post by **yycguy** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:35 am

I'll admit Rockie, that I don't know the whole sordid history of mixing aviation and politics in Toronto. But I do know that both sides play that game, for better or worse. And we could argue forever over the details.

What I do know is that I would love to return to the days before open skies when all routes were regulated, operators were guaranteed a monopoly (or at most a duopoly), and pilots were paid professional wages for a professional job.

But the business world today values an open marketplace, and there are laws in place to protect it. I want to see Porter make it as a successful airline. Jazz and AC need healthy competitors in the market, not airlines like Jetsgo that ran huge deficits and drove the industry to the ground. So I hope that Porter can compete, but the only way for them to do so is to open the island to other airlines and see how they do. Personally I think with a good advertising campaign and a slow and steady growth plan, they will have no problem competing against the big fish.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:28 am

The Island airport is open to other carriers yycguy. Porter doesn't own all the slots, just most of them. And that is as it should be because they are the only carrier that is headquartered there and their entire business is based off the island. Imagine Northwest giving up half their slots in KMSP, American half their slots in KDFW, United half their slots in KDEN, and Air Canada half their slots in CYYZ. As I mentioned before a key component of Porter's business plan was securing a ruling by the CTA that the TCCA was a common market with Pearson. That means that the available slots are considered from the same pool as Pearson and since Air Canada already has the lions share there, Porter can have the lions share on the island.

It is completely normal for American carriers to try and block another carrier from entering their market and they have in fact done that. They are welcome to ask for more slots into Toronto but they'll have to compete with everyone else since the available slots include Pearson and the Island.

As for Jazz, it is well established that they are not remotely interested in operating off the Island. They have been scaling back to almost nothing over the years and their only interest now is to deny Porter business, not provide a service from the Island. Had Jazz been interested they could have all the slots and Porter would not exist, but too late now. There are huge political roadblocks to operating off the island, and Robert Deluce has fought for years to overcome them. If it weren't for the likes of David Miller and the entitled Toronto Island residents this would (and should) have happened long ago.

The Toronto Port Authority is required to be self sufficient. There are no public funds spent to operate the Port at all despite Miller et al's protestations. At the same time they are crying about the Port losing money, they are doing their utmost to deny the Port the means to be self sufficient. Robert Deluce and his backers were willing to fully and privately fund the bridge, terminal and entire infrastructure to start up this airline but the people against it were too stupid to recognize that and believed all the lies told by Community Air and Miller.

Toronto should be thanking Deluce that he had the perseverance to see this thing through despite the interference and lies by Air Canada, Jazz, Miller and Community Air.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:41 am

I find it funny that Deluce has accused AC of trying to run a monopoly (as reported in the press) by trying to stop Porter's service to EWR. This man has successfully done everything in his power to keep AC out of the Island (aka a monopoly) and then accuses the other guys of the same crime. The Deluce family have been around aviation a long time. They are a successful, wealthy family. Just remember you don't get rich being a nice guy. These guys are up to no good once again to increase their wealth. They look forward to the day when someone comes along and makes them an offer for Porter and divide the millions amongst the family (aka how to make a quik buck as was the case when AC bought their previous airline). It would be curious to see an investigation launched into the deals made which have brought us to this point at YTZ airport. Nothing wrong with success. Just don't do it on the backs of others.

Valhalla · Post by **Valhalla** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:10 am

tonysoprano, there recently was an investigation and independant review into the deals made at YTZ. You should read it before you start badmouthing the Deluces.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/pol/en/report/toron ... ty/tpa.pdf

I think we can all agree that this industry is riddled with all sorts of assholes. But as one of his employees, I can say that Robert Deluce is a fantastic boss and there is good reason why the company morale is very high at Porter. He sets the tone in the company, and we all enjoy going to work.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:16 pm

Yeah Yeah .... He's fantastic now ... but when your sitting infront of the hiring panel at AC he's going to be an asshole. We all know how ass kissing is done. blah blah blah.

Your not going to like him too much when your fancy Q400's get the Jazz logo on them. Enjoy it while it last.

Cheers,

Loc

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:49 pm

Ok guys easy does it. Hey, I'll admit I'm not in on all the stuff that's happened but the bottom line is one gets kicked out and the other moves in. Air Ont used to have several flts a day out of there. Times got tough and they were down to just a couple. I'm not sure how much things have improved but I just can't see 10 flts a day or more out of there for too long. Valhalla, you work for him now. I have worked for them before. Watch out.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:43 pm

Localizer wrote:Yeah Yeah .... He's fantastic now ... but when your sitting infront of the hiring panel at AC he's going to be an asshole. We all know how ass kissing is done. blah blah blah.

Your not going to like him too much when your fancy Q400's get the Jazz logo on them. Enjoy it while it last.

Cheers,

Loc

Anything can happen in this business Loc. With the amount of cash Robert Deluce has behind him it is entirely possible Jazz airplanes could end up with a Porter logo on the tail.

How do you ass kiss anyhow pray tell?

yycguy · Post by **yycguy** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:47 pm

Rockie, my original post was simply to point out that it is not only about who has the slots, it is the fact that Jazz was evicted and denied any future ground facilities to even maintain the few flights a day that they originally operated.

On a side note I personally think Deluce had nothing to lose offering to build a bridge, he knew it would never be approved but he comes out looking golden for trying.

pointyertoes · Post by **pointyertoes** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:59 pm

Rockie wrote:
Localizer wrote:Yeah Yeah .... He's fantastic now ... but when your sitting infront of the hiring panel at AC he's going to be an asshole. We all know how ass kissing is done. blah blah blah.

Your not going to like him too much when your fancy Q400's get the Jazz logo on them. Enjoy it while it last.

Cheers,

Loc
Anything can happen in this business Loc. With the amount of cash Robert Deluce has behind him it is entirely possible Jazz airplanes could end up with a Porter logo on the tail.

How do you ass kiss anyhow pray tell?

I don't think it's in the business plan to have our image sullied by having the Porter logo plastered on clapped out, ancient Dash 8s and RJ 100s.
Nor is it in the plan for said airplanes to be crewed by bitter holier than thou primadonnas like Loc and Tony.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:30 pm

yycguy wrote:Rockie, my original post was simply to point out that it is not only about who has the slots, it is the fact that Jazz was evicted and denied any future ground facilities to even maintain the few flights a day that they originally operated.

On a side note I personally think Deluce had nothing to lose offering to build a bridge, he knew it would never be approved but he comes out looking golden for trying.

Jazz was evicted from the facilities that Robert Deluce had bought. Other facilities were available but were inadequate for their purposes. Too bad. It's not as if no one knew Deluce was doing this, and Jazz had ample opportunity to secure their place on the Island. The fact is they were smug thinking Miller and Co. had killed off any chance Deluce had of starting up and so weren't watching the farm. Again...too bad.

Construction had already started on the bridge when Miller was elected. The bridge was approved by all three party's to the tripartite agreement and Aecon had been awarded the contract. The area at the foot of Bathurst was fenced off and Aecon was trucking in the construction material. The money to pay for the bridge and the terminal had been committed, all privately funded so not a cent came out of the public purse. Then along comes Miller, who unilaterally withdrew the city's approval for the bridge in violation of the signed agreements. And the political dog and pony show from that moment on between the city and federal government is enough to make you physically sick with disgust.

The history of this whole thing makes for great reading if you like political intrigue, industrial sabotage and outright corruption. Jazz deserves to have their ass forcefully thrown off Toronto Island, Miller deserves to choke on his own bile every time a Porter Aircraft takes off, and Bill Freeman and Community Air deserve the stroke their going to give themselves everytime a Porter Aircraft lands.

And no, I do not work for Porter.

Nightflight · Post by **Nightflight** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:12 pm

Thanks Rockie for saying it like it is.

Jazz is crying foul because they did not get the opportunity to kill a potential competitor. They didn't give a damn about service out of CYTZ until Porter came along. You don't need a crystal ball to foretell what would have happened if they were allowed in there. They would have matched all of Porters routes at cheaper fares while operating at a loss of course. Once Porter was killed off then all those routes would have magically disappeared and we would have returned to crappy service out of the Island. I'm sure eventually the airport would have been shut down.
Bullys indeed! :gib:

That's Jazz on the right in case there is any confusion.