OK i am having a argument with someone here and need some input..... say you put a aircraft on a scale and weigh it. No you take a bunch of Helium filled balloons and stuff them in the fuselage and now weigh it again... it should weigh less right? it won't weigh less by much but it will still weigh less?
anyone?
Helium and Aircraft
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Siddley Hawker
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Re: Helium and Aircraft
I would agree. So long as that balloon is producing any force on the top surface, and it rises to the cabin roof; Or if you were to replace the air within the cabin with a less dense gas, the same would apply.Captain X wrote:OK i am having a argument with someone here and need some input..... say you put a aircraft on a scale and weigh it. No you take a bunch of Helium filled balloons and stuff them in the fuselage and now weigh it again... it should weigh less right? it won't weigh less by much but it will still weigh less?
anyone?
Here's one for you: Does a pressurized aircraft weigh less at altitude than if it were immediately weighed on the ground?
Not doing much these days, huh...
captain X, to further answer your question...
Yes it would weigh less, however what your GF may be confused over would be the total mass of the plane, which would actually go up (re the mass of the balloons and the helium inside said balloons.)
Weight is not the same thing as mass, think of weight and mass this way:
If there is a fat chick weight would be the amount of lift that the excavator would have to exert to lift her onto the flatbed of a truck so she can go to wallmart. If one were to attach her harness to a series of heavy lift balloons the excavator would have to exert less lift. Whereas the mass of the fat chick could be better described by trying to push the fatty over in the parking lot with your car. As the MASS of the object increases it will require more energy to overcome the objects total inertia. Now to relate that to how your airplanes mass would INCREASE by filling it with balloons imagine this:
Your aircraft is in a zero environment, no gravity, no air (and you have super duper balloons that wont pop in a vacuum.) You attach a small rocket to the plane and ignite it, you then measure the planes speed after the rocket has extinguished itself, say you get 15mm a second. You then zero the plane again, remove the balloons and repeat the experiment this time the plane is doing 15.00000001mm a second as the rocket only had to overcome the inertia of the plane and NOT the plane AND the balloons.
So, Weight is not the same as mass, and although you are right that the weight would go down, your girlfriend is on the right track with arguing with you the only thing she has to point out is weather you are talking about the mass or weight of the aircraft.
Yes it would weigh less, however what your GF may be confused over would be the total mass of the plane, which would actually go up (re the mass of the balloons and the helium inside said balloons.)
Weight is not the same thing as mass, think of weight and mass this way:
If there is a fat chick weight would be the amount of lift that the excavator would have to exert to lift her onto the flatbed of a truck so she can go to wallmart. If one were to attach her harness to a series of heavy lift balloons the excavator would have to exert less lift. Whereas the mass of the fat chick could be better described by trying to push the fatty over in the parking lot with your car. As the MASS of the object increases it will require more energy to overcome the objects total inertia. Now to relate that to how your airplanes mass would INCREASE by filling it with balloons imagine this:
Your aircraft is in a zero environment, no gravity, no air (and you have super duper balloons that wont pop in a vacuum.) You attach a small rocket to the plane and ignite it, you then measure the planes speed after the rocket has extinguished itself, say you get 15mm a second. You then zero the plane again, remove the balloons and repeat the experiment this time the plane is doing 15.00000001mm a second as the rocket only had to overcome the inertia of the plane and NOT the plane AND the balloons.
So, Weight is not the same as mass, and although you are right that the weight would go down, your girlfriend is on the right track with arguing with you the only thing she has to point out is weather you are talking about the mass or weight of the aircraft.
I tried reading your post Walker, and it seemed proper, but confused me none-the-less. I'll try my hand at the physics I think I remember from school.
Mass is just that - the amount of 'material' an object has.
Combine mass with gravity, and you get weight.
Weight = Mg
The gravitational constant for Earth, as taught in grade 11 physics to me, was -9.81 m/s^2 (the - means down). This number changes if you are in space, or on the moon. Side note, the Gravity is more-less proportional to the size of the body developing the gravity. That is one reason why the Earth has a greater pull than the moon.
Now, adding helium balloons to an aircraft would essentially increase the mass, but lessen the weight. I do not have the numbers, but I think you would need alot of helium to make a noticeable change.
The 'lighter than air' effect of the helium in essence would cause an acceleration opposite of gravity, making gravity's -9.81 m/s^2 less, something along the lines of say.. -9.80 m/s^2.
Cheers! Please critisize me!
FY
Mass is just that - the amount of 'material' an object has.
Combine mass with gravity, and you get weight.
Weight = Mg
The gravitational constant for Earth, as taught in grade 11 physics to me, was -9.81 m/s^2 (the - means down). This number changes if you are in space, or on the moon. Side note, the Gravity is more-less proportional to the size of the body developing the gravity. That is one reason why the Earth has a greater pull than the moon.
Now, adding helium balloons to an aircraft would essentially increase the mass, but lessen the weight. I do not have the numbers, but I think you would need alot of helium to make a noticeable change.
The 'lighter than air' effect of the helium in essence would cause an acceleration opposite of gravity, making gravity's -9.81 m/s^2 less, something along the lines of say.. -9.80 m/s^2.
Cheers! Please critisize me!
FY
Flying is the second greatest thrill in life... landing is the first.
Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand. I dont care, Im still free. You cant take the Sky from me
Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand. I dont care, Im still free. You cant take the Sky from me
Mass is a quantity of matter. Some people quantify it in kilograms, others in pounds.
Weight is a force. Some people quantify it in newtons, others in pounds.
Problem is, pounds can be viewed as a quantity of matter or a force and this is because back in the day people confused the concepts of mass and weight as they didn't have zero-gravity environments handy to open their eyes.
On the moon, your mass will be the same as on Earth or as in outer space but your weight will be 1/6th from your Earth weight. Simply put, if you want to change your weight, simply change your pull toward or away from the Earth by applying another force. Or, you can change the gravity constant.
But you'll still be a fat ass.
Weight is a force. Some people quantify it in newtons, others in pounds.
Problem is, pounds can be viewed as a quantity of matter or a force and this is because back in the day people confused the concepts of mass and weight as they didn't have zero-gravity environments handy to open their eyes.
On the moon, your mass will be the same as on Earth or as in outer space but your weight will be 1/6th from your Earth weight. Simply put, if you want to change your weight, simply change your pull toward or away from the Earth by applying another force. Or, you can change the gravity constant.
But you'll still be a fat ass.
No Brakes
"Flying is simple. You just throw yourself at the ground and miss." Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
"Flying is simple. You just throw yourself at the ground and miss." Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
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happily.retired
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Cpt. X,
The real question is this - Is being right worth starting an argument that'll prevent you from getting any action this evening?
If so, you should point out to your girlfriend that if you could get enough helium into the a/c to lift it above ground level (theoreticaly obviously) it would be farther away from Earth's gravitational pull, which becomes less as one moves away from the body producing the gravity. Therefore the plane and everything in it will weigh less, just like an astronaut but to a lesser extent. You can also use this logic to convince her to go mile high since she'll be lighter and will therefore feel sexier at altitude
If on the other hand you ever want to enjoy your girlfriend's "company" again I recomend three little words -"Maybe you're right"
The real question is this - Is being right worth starting an argument that'll prevent you from getting any action this evening?
If so, you should point out to your girlfriend that if you could get enough helium into the a/c to lift it above ground level (theoreticaly obviously) it would be farther away from Earth's gravitational pull, which becomes less as one moves away from the body producing the gravity. Therefore the plane and everything in it will weigh less, just like an astronaut but to a lesser extent. You can also use this logic to convince her to go mile high since she'll be lighter and will therefore feel sexier at altitude
If on the other hand you ever want to enjoy your girlfriend's "company" again I recomend three little words -"Maybe you're right"
One that that no one seems to have discussed is buoyancy. The only reason the airplane with helium balloons weighs less is because the airplane and the balloons are immersed in air that is denser closer to the ground.
Helium, being lighter than air is more buoyant. Helium has no other special anti-gravity (or any other physical force) properties.
The airplane would weigh more if you weighed it at higher altitudes as the air became thinner and the buoyancy effects of the balloons were reduced.
Here’s another mind-bender. Let’s say we filled the airplane with water. What would it weigh? What if we then weighed it under water?
Helium, being lighter than air is more buoyant. Helium has no other special anti-gravity (or any other physical force) properties.
The airplane would weigh more if you weighed it at higher altitudes as the air became thinner and the buoyancy effects of the balloons were reduced.
Here’s another mind-bender. Let’s say we filled the airplane with water. What would it weigh? What if we then weighed it under water?
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Driving Rain
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Thats true CID but Helium will not support combustion unlike air so we can get rid of the extra weight of a fire suppression system paying even bigger dividends.Helium, being lighter than air is more buoyant. Helium has no other special anti-gravity (or any other physical force) properties.
How's that for splitting hairs in a CID like manner.
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tiggermoth
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