Still taking low timers?

Foo Fighter · Post by **Foo Fighter** » Mon May 21, 2007 4:38 pm

Workopolis site states min times for F/O's are 1500hrs.

Is this still the case or are low timers being considered?

FF

yycflyguy · Post by **yycflyguy** » Mon May 21, 2007 4:42 pm

Workopolis site states min times for F/O's are 1500hrs.

Is this still the case or are low timers being considered?

FF

That IS low time.

Stinky · Post by **Stinky** » Mon May 21, 2007 5:05 pm

What I don't understand is why they have left the minimums at an ATPL and 1500hrs yet plan on taking college grads with 200hrs. Wouldn't it make sense to also consider college grads (pre 2007) with say 1000hrs and an IATRA written.

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Mon May 21, 2007 5:05 pm

I have a good contact very high up in the company who recommended me to apply, but he also told me my time is still too low (1200hrs, 500+ multi turbine, 530PIC). Go ahead and apply, it doesn't cost a thing and it takes a few minutes. I wouldn't expect a call unless you meet the mins or are very close to meeting them.

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Mon May 21, 2007 5:55 pm

Stinky wrote:What I don't understand is why they have left the minimums at an ATPL and 1500hrs yet plan on taking college grads with 200hrs. Wouldn't it make sense to also consider college grads (pre 2007) with say 1000hrs and an IATRA written.

They are taking 200 hour college grades because they are the best up and comming pilots. Jazz takes the top few students from aviation colleges across the country(the colleges send their best students) and put them through a coarse, from there Jazz hires the top pilots in the group. Its a preety good idea on their part, taking the top level of talent every year.

Stinky · Post by **Stinky** » Mon May 21, 2007 6:33 pm

I'm familiar with the plan, but you have to admit that somebody that graduated with high marks from one of these same colleges a year or two earlier and has managed to log about 1000hrs would be an equally good choice. In my opinion they would actually be a better choice.
Just because you've been pre-screened by the college and then once again screened by Jazz doesn't make you a superstar.
I'm a true superstar and I was only interviewed once.

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Mon May 21, 2007 7:26 pm

IMO Hiring a top college grad is like approving an 18 year old high school grad with a $ 250,000 mortgage on a home...........Risky.

JZA · Post by **JZA** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:15 pm

linebacker35

Just because you have the top marks in ANYTHING....does not necessarily make you the best candidate for the job.

I'm really worried about this program. A lot of these kids will virtually no life experience whatsoever...there is so much more to being a pilot for an airline than having the "talent" to fly.

Like a captain recently said to me rgarding this program....I get paid to be the "pilot-in-command" .... not be a "Dad" as well.

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:27 pm

They are taking 200 hour college grades because they are the best up and comming pilots. Jazz takes the top few students from aviation colleges across the country(the colleges send their best students) and put them through a coarse, from there Jazz hires the top pilots in the group. Its a preety good idea on their part, taking the top level of talent every year.

Hope they do better on the sim than the spelling part. I'm not as worried about my job now.

2low · Post by **2low** » Mon May 21, 2007 11:41 pm

2low · Post by **2low** » Mon May 21, 2007 11:42 pm

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Tue May 22, 2007 6:45 am

linebacker35 wrote:
Stinky wrote:What I don't understand is why they have left the minimums at an ATPL and 1500hrs yet plan on taking college grads with 200hrs. Wouldn't it make sense to also consider college grads (pre 2007) with say 1000hrs and an IATRA written.
They are taking 200 hour college grades because they are the best up and comming pilots. Jazz takes the top few students from aviation colleges across the country(the colleges send their best students) and put them through a coarse, from there Jazz hires the top pilots in the group. Its a preety good idea on their part, taking the top level of talent every year.

spoken like a true college grad...

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 am

Stinky, you have just unwittingly summed up the feelings of every single working pilot with experience that hasn't yet had their shot at that job.

You, with 1000 hrs, feel that it is ridiculous to hire a college grad with 200 hrs because that was "you" just a couple short years ago...and you're now still "you" but with 800 more hrs.

Now just think about those that graduated college or flight school 5, 7, 10 years ago who not only aced school, but also ramped, F/O'd, and Captained a half a dozen or more types all over Canada for the last decade, and now have 5000++ hrs. They're still "them" but with several thousand more hours than "you". Fair?

To me the best lesson from all of this is that hours, and I mean just the pure number of them that you've flown, have very, very little correlation to actually getting the job you want. College, in my opinion, provides those connections and opens doors that are not otherwise open for everyone else. Like it or lump it.

spaz · Post by **spaz** » Tue May 22, 2007 7:35 am

When they picked the 'top grads' what did they consider? Good marks on the PPL, CPL MIFR ride? Good academic marks? Who selected you? Managers of your school? Your instructors? Our management? Our trainers? Our Pilots (that you will WORK with)?. Did they take into account your real world work experience? Because this is a job. You will be working. Alot. Only some of that work will be flying airplanes and a very small part will be passing a fucking sim ride

Have you guys ever worked for a living? Do you know about showing up to work on time? The value of a dollar? Benifits? Dealing with management? knowing when to pick you battles? Getting along with a superior/coworker/subordinate? Union politics? Customer Service? The logisitcs of getting an airplane from A to B? Dealing with maintenance? Dealing with dispatch? Troubleshooting mechanical failures (there is NOT a checklist for everything)? Being professional?

Keep thinking you're equal to someone who has worked in the profession for even a few years if you want, but your little group patting each other on the back at recess are the only ones who agree with you. The program Jazz has in mind to train you guys is NOT the same as Europe and the US. They are planning a THREE WEEK course. Holy shit, I'd love to see what they do in those 21 days. Our Canadian military trains multi guys on King Air 90's in real world IFR, that's how they make low time candidates work.

Management's line is 'we're running out of resumes'. Bullshit, they're running out of resume's at the price they're paying. Supply and demand says it's time to pay more. This program is just a way to artificially increase supply, you guys are being used. The only benifit of hiring you is a few dollars saved for management, you don't help anyone else, the captains will be working ALOT harder.

Also, it only takes about a year and a half to turn a college/flight school/flying club grad into a 1500 hr pilot with an ATPL in this country. So people who barely had graduated from school when this hiring spree started qualify at Jazz now, and would be better to fly with than you guys.

Reality Check.

Stinky · Post by **Stinky** » Tue May 22, 2007 9:05 am

Dockjock, I fly for Jazz, what I was trying to say was that Jazz is holding firm to there minimums of 1500hrs and an ATPL and telling us they are short when it comes to resumes on file forcing them to look at 200 hr college grads.
What about guys with the very same college diploma earned perhaps a year or two ago, and 1000 hrs in the logbook. The college program couldn't have changed that much in such a short period of time. These guys would have had the chance to prove themselves a bit in the real world also. At least let them have a crack at it. Look at everything, marks in school, work reference, the whole deal.
I don't have a college diploma and when I interviewed at Jazz they didn't care about marks in High school, University, whatever. It was all about hours logged, types flown, and operational experience.
Taking a 200 hr guy from college pisses me off, resetting the minimums to 1500hrs and an ATPL if no college diploma or 1000 hrs, college diplama and an IATRA doesn't piss me off.
And remember this is coming from a Jazz pilot with no college diploma, I'd call it a fair compromise.

PeteThePilot · Post by **PeteThePilot** » Tue May 22, 2007 9:22 am

Keep in mind that the grads from Seneca (if not some others) have some sort of time in their RJ sim. I have no idea of the hours but coming right out of CP's mouth was "these grads are better trained (on the RJ) then our FO's".

I think that is probably the underlying reason that this is getting pushed through. Somebody somewhere was made to believe that these 200 grads with 50 hours in an RJ sim would be better than a 1000 instructor with no jet sim time, SOP knowledge, multi-crew experience, etc.

Jeremy Kent · Post by **Jeremy Kent** » Tue May 22, 2007 10:25 am

It seems to me that this is all a test, for the day when there really ARE a lack of qualified pilots to draw from (if that ever happens!). Are there any plans to continue with further classes of college grads, or is it just this one bunch to begin with?

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Tue May 22, 2007 1:12 pm

PeteThePilot wrote:Keep in mind that the grads from Seneca (if not some others) have some sort of time in their RJ sim. I have no idea of the hours but coming right out of CP's mouth was "these grads are better trained (on the RJ) then our FO's".

I think that is probably the underlying reason that this is getting pushed through. Somebody somewhere was made to believe that these 200 grads with 50 hours in an RJ sim would be better than a 1000 instructor with no jet sim time, SOP knowledge, multi-crew experience, etc.

And what if they need Dash pilots at the time? I guess all their fancy RJ training goes out the window... This has nothing to do with qualifications. (They will be trained till they get it right no matter how long it takes.They can't have their superstar cadets failing out now can they?) Its all about money. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either A) a complete idiot or B) someone who has absolutely no idea of what is really going on in the industry.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Tue May 22, 2007 2:00 pm

bcflyer wrote: Its all about money. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either A) a complete idiot or B) someone who has absolutely no idea of what is really going on in the industry.

You hit the nail on the head right there. College grads will gladly accept the pay, they'll stay around longer, and be happier about the position they get. It's about costs and nothing more. It's the only way ACJ is going to be able to keep it's salary inflation down.

Think of it this way...it's that many more 200 hour wonders that won't be hunting for the same right seat turbo prop job every year.

tintin42 · Post by **tintin42** » Tue May 22, 2007 2:44 pm

I graduated two years ago from one of the college that was chosen by Jazz. In that time I flew PC12, B1900 and now just starting the Dash 8 and I kept contact with other from my class with all kind of experience. With what I experienced and saw, I belive that for a graduate it would be almost easier to fly the Dash 8 for a big compagny than FO on navajo or small king airs. Because it operate by the book, like the student learned, not by a bad compagny that push the pilot to do illegal stuff or show them all kind of bad habbit from new CAPT. I was lucky enough to fly in good compagnies that are not like that but I saw a lot of people that can't say the same.

On the other hand, it's weird that I can not even get an interview at jazz with 2000 hours because I don't have my ATPL (with copilot that count 1/2) and they can with 250. I don't whant to take anything away from them tough, everybody would take that opportunity if they had it.

Stinky · Post by **Stinky** » Tue May 22, 2007 5:18 pm

Tintin, I'm surprised you feel that the experience you gained hasn't made you a better pilot then when you graduated college.
I feel that being pressured to break regs, fly in crappy weather in crappy airplanes enhanced my decision making skills, those skills come in handy often and if the s#@t ever hits the fan it may save my life.

tintin42 · Post by **tintin42** » Tue May 22, 2007 6:16 pm

I think all that experience made me a much better pilot. What I'm saying is when you graduate from college your more ready for an airline type of operation than low 3rd level operation. So they SHOULDN'T have to much problem, but of course there is no substitution to experience.

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Tue May 22, 2007 8:15 pm

KAG wrote:
spoken like a true college grad...

Nah, im just a freshmen physics major. I was just repeating what a program told me when I told them I would rather fly in the jungle or the arctic or something crazy like that instead of going to Jazz to build time.

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Tue May 22, 2007 8:21 pm

I dont believe experiance(time and real world experiance) means that that makes someone a better pilot. Its all about the training someone recieves and I guess Jazz thinks that their training is good enough that they can take a 250 hour guy and turn him into a good FO.

Be glad it is a competition of the best college pilots in the country, in the states all you have to do is pay your way in to a regional. Expensive training programs that put anyone into the right seat of an RJ.

Not that this applies to me, I personaly am thinking about taking the airforce route

skyhigh · Post by **skyhigh** » Tue May 22, 2007 9:31 pm

spoke to the fella that was putting together this 9 day bridging program for the college guys and he mentioned that an afternoon would be dedicated to reading jepp plates....gimme a break....if these kids are from some elite college association, then shouldnt they already come with some basics down pat??? like say reading a freakin Jepp plate.