After being in the industry for a year now and getting some actual IMC hours in a PA31, I've come to realize that many of the people that taught me my IFR rating knew very little or nothing about flying IFR. I'm pretty sure that some of them had never been in a cloud before. I know this shortcoming is probably no surprise to many of you especially now that there seems to be some movement in the industry and it's near impossible to keep an instructor with any significant amount of hours but this still should be no excuse for poor instruction. As a guy who's pissed off that he spent thousands of dollars on what ultimately amounts to some pretty shotty instruction, I’m wondering why there isn’t something protecting us unsuspecting students from this?
On a side note: My advice to anyone currently doing or getting ready to do their IFR rating. Ask you instructor or potential instructor some questions. If they tell you (or you know) their IFR “experience” is shooting approaches VFR with there last # of students…. Find someone else! They have no “Real world” advice to offer. Also, be sure that they’re not afraid to take you flying IMC (at least once, when you and they are comfortable with your abilities), I think it’s a complete fraud on the part of the student and more so the instructor/school if one is able to get an IFR rating without ever being IMC. It just doesn’t make sense!
Green IFR Instructors
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Cleared Enroute
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Interesting. How do you think your instructors failed you? How was the instruction shoddy? From your posts, it seems like you did your training in S. Ontario. Not really the best location for actual IMC in summer and winter. In winter you have icing nearly every day, while in the summer there are TS forecast nearly every day. Unless the school you're training at has aircraft equipped for these conditions, there aren't many times when actual IMC is sensible. So, what did your instructors do or not do that you think was wrong?
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shitdisturber
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They didn't get him/her killed?Aviatard wrote:Interesting. How do you think your instructors failed you? How was the instruction shoddy? From your posts, it seems like you did your training in S. Ontario. Not really the best location for actual IMC in summer and winter. In winter you have icing nearly every day, while in the summer there are TS forecast nearly every day. Unless the school you're training at has aircraft equipped for these conditions, there aren't many times when actual IMC is sensible. So, what did your instructors do or not do that you think was wrong?
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Cleared Enroute
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First of all, I should point out that, in general, I was happy with my flight school which is in S. ON, and to be honest I'm not sure how much blame can be put on the instructors themselves as they're just doing there job to the best of their abilities/knowledge.
The problem is I feel like most IFR instructors, (unfortunately I had many since they kept leaving) that don't have any "real world" experience don't have adequate knowledge to properly answer questions and provide valuable insight. There were times when I would have to correct an instructor or would catch them fabricating their best answer because they didn't know the right one. This is what ticked me off the most and what I would call shoddy instruction.
I would say that the one instructor I had with IFR experience was far and away a better instructor those without. He was able to back up lessons with anecdotes and examples that were pertinent and helpful which helps enormously in understating the complex world of the IFR system. He was also able to provide tips on how it’s “actually” done as opposed to how it’s done in the book. Instructors that finished their rating only months before me did not have that insight and are harder to take seriously for that reason.
Avitard, I think it's interesting that you (and many others) seem to think that it is ok for someone to be awarded an IFR rating when they have never even been through a cloud. I understand that the trusty hood is supposed to take care of this but I think that there is a big difference between flying in weather and VFR flying with a hood on. I think most would agree. There are many more distractions I find when you're in cloud and it really does create a different atmosphere. (Because of this I had an instructor that, believe it or not, wore a hood while in cloud). I don't think it matters where you're from, there's always going to be a suitable day for IMC training
Again, I should concede that it's probably more a break-down in the system with the blind leading the blind due to lack of pay etc. than the fault of the instructors, but these were my experiences and I think that with the amount I spent on the rating (Group 1 especially) that I was not getting what I was paying for.
The problem is I feel like most IFR instructors, (unfortunately I had many since they kept leaving) that don't have any "real world" experience don't have adequate knowledge to properly answer questions and provide valuable insight. There were times when I would have to correct an instructor or would catch them fabricating their best answer because they didn't know the right one. This is what ticked me off the most and what I would call shoddy instruction.
I would say that the one instructor I had with IFR experience was far and away a better instructor those without. He was able to back up lessons with anecdotes and examples that were pertinent and helpful which helps enormously in understating the complex world of the IFR system. He was also able to provide tips on how it’s “actually” done as opposed to how it’s done in the book. Instructors that finished their rating only months before me did not have that insight and are harder to take seriously for that reason.
Avitard, I think it's interesting that you (and many others) seem to think that it is ok for someone to be awarded an IFR rating when they have never even been through a cloud. I understand that the trusty hood is supposed to take care of this but I think that there is a big difference between flying in weather and VFR flying with a hood on. I think most would agree. There are many more distractions I find when you're in cloud and it really does create a different atmosphere. (Because of this I had an instructor that, believe it or not, wore a hood while in cloud). I don't think it matters where you're from, there's always going to be a suitable day for IMC training
Again, I should concede that it's probably more a break-down in the system with the blind leading the blind due to lack of pay etc. than the fault of the instructors, but these were my experiences and I think that with the amount I spent on the rating (Group 1 especially) that I was not getting what I was paying for.
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Cat Driver
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That is a great idea it prevents the pilot from realizing they are in cloud so they do not panic.(Because of this I had an instructor that, believe it or not, wore a hood while in cloud).
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
A few questions for you. Did you check around to find a school that had the most experienced instructors? How about their management and CFI - did you verify that he/she had lots of expereience and was actually involved in the day to day training/supervision process? Did you find out what kind of training was put into their instructors development?
Or did you just go to the most convenient place due to location? Or did you go where the rates were lowest and you'd be done the quickest?
It seems that so many people on here complain about poor flight training and yet continue to look for the cheapest, fastest way to get it done. There's so much more to your training than just the instructor you work with. The school has to have a solid managment team, sound curriculum and policies and practices that you agree with. Did you sit down with the CFI and discuss any of this prior to starting up? If not you got exactly what you deserved. And if you did and they delivered as promised, again you got what you deserved. If you did and they didn't deliver what they promised, you should lodge an official complaint.
Overall, flight training to get a licence is merely the start in your development as a pilot. All the subsequent jobs you get will be a continuation of that training and that's where you get the "real world" teachings and lessons - in the real world.
Or did you just go to the most convenient place due to location? Or did you go where the rates were lowest and you'd be done the quickest?
It seems that so many people on here complain about poor flight training and yet continue to look for the cheapest, fastest way to get it done. There's so much more to your training than just the instructor you work with. The school has to have a solid managment team, sound curriculum and policies and practices that you agree with. Did you sit down with the CFI and discuss any of this prior to starting up? If not you got exactly what you deserved. And if you did and they delivered as promised, again you got what you deserved. If you did and they didn't deliver what they promised, you should lodge an official complaint.
Overall, flight training to get a licence is merely the start in your development as a pilot. All the subsequent jobs you get will be a continuation of that training and that's where you get the "real world" teachings and lessons - in the real world.
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
So, why didn't you just cancel your training on days when the wx was not to your liking. Contrary to belief, a flight school cannot manufacture wx to suit the lesson of the day. If you want to fly in cloud wait for a cloudy day to go flying.
You could also try finding a school that has aircraft certified for icing. makes for many more suitable 'IFR' days.
Lastly, as to instructor experience. Instruction is an entry level job. It does not take much more to teach the basics. When you are first learning, it is the basics that you need. You must walk before running. If everyone wanted a highly experience pilot to teach you, the cost would go up to quite a bit more than most people are willing to pay. If you could even find someone.
You could also try finding a school that has aircraft certified for icing. makes for many more suitable 'IFR' days.
Lastly, as to instructor experience. Instruction is an entry level job. It does not take much more to teach the basics. When you are first learning, it is the basics that you need. You must walk before running. If everyone wanted a highly experience pilot to teach you, the cost would go up to quite a bit more than most people are willing to pay. If you could even find someone.
Wahunga!
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Zapp Brannigan
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That's exactly it. I'd be apprehensive to fly hard single pilot IFR right after my rating, whether I had 5 hours actual IMC or 0.5x5 wrote:Overall, flight training to get a licence is merely the start in your development as a pilot. All the subsequent jobs you get will be a continuation of that training and that's where you get the "real world" teachings and lessons - in the real world.
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Cat Driver
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So does that mean that substandard instructors and make belive IMC training is a good thing?That's exactly it. I'd be apprehensive to fly hard single pilot IFR right after my rating, whether I had 5 hours actual IMC or 0.
Why not give the students the books and the airplane and let them teach themselves how to fly IFR, wouldn't that save paying an instructor who is also learning?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
You get what you pay for!!!
My flight instructor at Flight safety had twenty thousand hours .He was typed in many aircraft .He had flown all around the world .The course was a lot more than the courses offered in SW ontario.Full motion Simulator before the aircraft.
You get what you pay for!!!
Go to flight safety for your next annual training or do you know it all now that you have been flying a ho for a whole entire year
You might be suprised at what they can show you about your flying.
My flight instructor at Flight safety had twenty thousand hours .He was typed in many aircraft .He had flown all around the world .The course was a lot more than the courses offered in SW ontario.Full motion Simulator before the aircraft.
You get what you pay for!!!
Go to flight safety for your next annual training or do you know it all now that you have been flying a ho for a whole entire year
You might be suprised at what they can show you about your flying.
Last edited by 2R on Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Shiny Side Up
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A good instructor should always be learning. One might say that there's no such thing as teaching, only helping people learn.Why not give the students the books and the airplane and let them teach themselves how to fly IFR, wouldn't that save paying an instructor who is also learning?
As for "make believe" IFR training, it has its own value, after all we can't always wait for there to be clouds out there to stroke our egos and say that we've flown in them. Much of IFR training is beating procedures into a student's skull, and the true value of a comes to light of sim time - which I might add many don't see the value of compared to airplane time. But anyhoo, That's my view which since I have less "In cloud" time than most, probably doesn't count for much.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
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Cat Driver
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Cat Driver
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Hmmm....Most trainers do not have radar either or much in the way of anti-ice de-icing so why go into clouds without proper protection.
If you are so fu.kin stupid you can't determine what clouds are safe to fly in and what clouds are unsafe, by all means stay out of them.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Shiny Side Up
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True, but even your old mechanical Frascas (and I dare say Microsoft flight Sim) can be put to good use in the right hands, if the student and instructor are willing to make the most of their usage, instead of the typical "lets knock some time off" attitude that many take towards them.Cat Driver wrote:Shiney, modern sims such as used for training in Airbusses and Boeings are better than the airplane for many reasons....
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
I thought spending a fortune in a fancy sim made you a whore, now all of a sudden it means your'e smart with your money and training objectives.
It's like somebody else said, you have to walk before you can run. Just because your'e smart enough not to fly single pilot hard IFR the day you get your'e rating signed off doesn't mean you received substandard training.
Most new guys will get hired into the right seat for their first IFR job and the skills they were taught by that inexperienced instructor are likely adequate.
If you're a private aircraft owner that plans on flying IFR on a regular basis, then you'd be smart to spend the money and time to get better trained. Otherwise learn real world flying in the real world. Get the basics at your flight school and save your money.
It's like somebody else said, you have to walk before you can run. Just because your'e smart enough not to fly single pilot hard IFR the day you get your'e rating signed off doesn't mean you received substandard training.
Most new guys will get hired into the right seat for their first IFR job and the skills they were taught by that inexperienced instructor are likely adequate.
If you're a private aircraft owner that plans on flying IFR on a regular basis, then you'd be smart to spend the money and time to get better trained. Otherwise learn real world flying in the real world. Get the basics at your flight school and save your money.
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Shiny Side Up
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Exactly. Once upon a time Shiny Side Up did his original Multi-IFR training, None of it was in cloud I might add seeing as though it was God accursedly sunny during the entire period (I'll never figure out how that TC examiner managed to wear a sweater for the ride and complain about being cold given that it was up around the +30C mark - probably something to do with being cold blooded or possibly reptilian) The maximum amount of Sim usage was used as well I might add - back in those days computers being what they were it wasn't the most realistic thing either but we made the most of it and consequently with such excellent training the first time I ended up in cloud (on a recurrency ride I might add) it was a non-event.Stinky wrote:I thought spending a fortune in a fancy sim made you a whore, now all of a sudden it means your'e smart with your money and training objectives.
The lesson to be learned here is training is what you make it. As much as one might want to blame shoddy instruction, remember it takes two to tango.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
I think Stinky has got it. What we have here is 2 separate goals: 1) get licensed 2) learn IFR good enough to fly it.
When you are beginning, I think these goals are mutually exclusive. Go to school, learn the basics, then get licensed (let's ignore FlightSafety for a moment as its definitely out of reach for most pilots). Then you go out and get a job and you go fly IFR, but like all other aspects of flying, you don't go looking for the most difficult situation immediately, you fly in good weather, file every trip, get used to the procedures and what to say/tell everyone on the radio, shoot approaches whenever you can, then you start to add the difficult trips as you gain experience.
FlightSafety (or Simuflite or Bombardier etc.) can short circuit this procedure - the training is intense and detailed and involves many simulated emergencies in a device that is identical to an airplane, except the instructor can stop the sim before you 'kill' yourself and poorly-executed exercises can be quickly repeated to perfection. An example would be doing a V1 cut with a complicated departure, like the Canarsie Departure in JFK - screw it up, stop the sim., back on the threshold, do it again. You just cannot do that in an airplane.
In my opinion, it is reasonable to only expect a license from an ab initio IFR school.
When you are beginning, I think these goals are mutually exclusive. Go to school, learn the basics, then get licensed (let's ignore FlightSafety for a moment as its definitely out of reach for most pilots). Then you go out and get a job and you go fly IFR, but like all other aspects of flying, you don't go looking for the most difficult situation immediately, you fly in good weather, file every trip, get used to the procedures and what to say/tell everyone on the radio, shoot approaches whenever you can, then you start to add the difficult trips as you gain experience.
FlightSafety (or Simuflite or Bombardier etc.) can short circuit this procedure - the training is intense and detailed and involves many simulated emergencies in a device that is identical to an airplane, except the instructor can stop the sim before you 'kill' yourself and poorly-executed exercises can be quickly repeated to perfection. An example would be doing a V1 cut with a complicated departure, like the Canarsie Departure in JFK - screw it up, stop the sim., back on the threshold, do it again. You just cannot do that in an airplane.
In my opinion, it is reasonable to only expect a license from an ab initio IFR school.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Were you trying to get an "instrument rating" or were you trying to get IFR instruction?
IFR instruction means nothing and you can't fly anything with it.
You need an instrument rating to fly IFR.
You said you finally got a job flying a pa31 in IFR, so you must have passed your "instrument rating" thanks in part to your instructor.
This has nothing to do with instructors, schools or students sole blame can and should be assigned to Transport Canada.
This arguement can be carried over to Float ratings where some schools have guys who've only flown floats at their lake and taught hundreds of students and signed them off(to build time for insurance purposes), and when you get to the east/west coast or or wherever and you hit the swells and you end up going down...
Transport Canada and Insurance companies are to blame.
PS. Didn't you learn anything while you were flying right seat from the captain?? Or did you learn everything from the ramp?
IFR instruction means nothing and you can't fly anything with it.
You need an instrument rating to fly IFR.
You said you finally got a job flying a pa31 in IFR, so you must have passed your "instrument rating" thanks in part to your instructor.
This has nothing to do with instructors, schools or students sole blame can and should be assigned to Transport Canada.
This arguement can be carried over to Float ratings where some schools have guys who've only flown floats at their lake and taught hundreds of students and signed them off(to build time for insurance purposes), and when you get to the east/west coast or or wherever and you hit the swells and you end up going down...
Transport Canada and Insurance companies are to blame.
PS. Didn't you learn anything while you were flying right seat from the captain?? Or did you learn everything from the ramp?
why is it that when you train for your ppl and cpl 9/10 times its a crappy day....you move on to the ifr training and 9/10 times there's not a cloud in the sky? lol I hate you Murphy...and your stupid fu.kin law!
I do believe IFR should have a bit of actual time in the cloud. It is two separate things. With a hood, you'll always have some reference to the ground (peripherals...spelling?) First time in cloud I barely kept straight and level, its just a different/new experience. Now thinking on to a job...is this lack of real-life experience expected from captains? What do co-pilots really do (the ones who go from ramp to plane)?
Like when a ramp guy gets into a plane...has anyone ever said while shooting an approach through cloud "wtf is going on here" Just wondering how much of an adjustment it is going from sitting on the ramp to getting back into it cold?
I do believe IFR should have a bit of actual time in the cloud. It is two separate things. With a hood, you'll always have some reference to the ground (peripherals...spelling?) First time in cloud I barely kept straight and level, its just a different/new experience. Now thinking on to a job...is this lack of real-life experience expected from captains? What do co-pilots really do (the ones who go from ramp to plane)?
Like when a ramp guy gets into a plane...has anyone ever said while shooting an approach through cloud "wtf is going on here" Just wondering how much of an adjustment it is going from sitting on the ramp to getting back into it cold?
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Cleared Enroute
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I find it interesting that the IFR rating is regarded as something you just finish and then really lean from real world experience. Obviously this is the case with most, as it was for me. I learned more in my first few charters than I did in any lesson during training. But isn't this the problem??? Shouldn't a guy who has a newley minted IFR rating be able to competantly fly an approach in inclement WX with some confidence that things will end well. Obviously this is not the case with the way things are now. I know when I was finished my IFR rating, I was very aprehensive about flying SP IFR because there is just too much I still didn't know (BTW, I'm not an idiot, scored over 90% on the INRAT and had a great flight test score). This shouldn't be the case. With the completion of any other rating or license most people feel comfortable going out and excercising the rights and privleges of the license (within their comfort zone, of course). From my experience, this is not the case with new IFR pilots, for the most part.
Maybe more of that "time building" for the CPL should be spent learning the in's and out's of IFR flying.
Maybe more of that "time building" for the CPL should be spent learning the in's and out's of IFR flying.
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Zapp Brannigan
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IFR flying is different from any of the other licenses and ratings you would have completed. The VFR world always offers more options and oevrall less danger. I don't think you can say the same for the IFR world.
Besides, how much instrument training would you be wiling to pay for before you have your rating? Isn't it better to get hired on as an FO like you did, and sit there and watch and learn while getting paid for it instead of putting up with an increased debt?
Besides, how much instrument training would you be wiling to pay for before you have your rating? Isn't it better to get hired on as an FO like you did, and sit there and watch and learn while getting paid for it instead of putting up with an increased debt?
I have a suggestion to fill this void in the instructing world - why don't you quit your current job now that you are filled with IFR knowledge and go get an instructor rating and pass on your cloud experience to these new and green IFR pilots-in-training?
The truth is, an IFR rating is simply a rating to give you basic skills and knowledge and then it is up to the individual to use good judgement and realize that there is yet much to learn. There will always be some amazing instructors and some not so amazing ones, but an initial instrument rating can only teach you so much in a given time. We all learned what was needed to get us successfully through the ride, however the real learning really does come on the job.
The truth is, an IFR rating is simply a rating to give you basic skills and knowledge and then it is up to the individual to use good judgement and realize that there is yet much to learn. There will always be some amazing instructors and some not so amazing ones, but an initial instrument rating can only teach you so much in a given time. We all learned what was needed to get us successfully through the ride, however the real learning really does come on the job.
