Funding a rating with EI

[Northern Skies]

Has anyone here successfully tried this? I'm looking for some advice, so as not to run into any snags in the system.

I think it's pretty straightforward to present, with all the IFR job ads out there right now and no float jobs available at this time of year ....for some reason .

I'm just wondering what sort of time frame the process took, what helped to get you approved, if you had to appeal, and any other details.

Also, did you have to have a standing job offer from a company, conditional on the rating, or are a bunch of letters saying "he would be considered if he had this rating" good enough?

Thanks in advance, I'm sure there are a lot of us looking for this info.

[RatherBeFlyingInCanada]

I believe this has been covered beforee in a previous thread, but whats the point in scamming the system? EI is there for the people that need it, just find a good paying job and save up for it.

[Northern Skies]

That's a funny response. How am I scamming the system? This is a skills development grant set up to make EI eligible applicants marketable in the workforce. The money is there for those who apply and are deemed to qualify for funding.

Here is my skillset: float/wheel, single piston VFR pilot. 1000 hours. Bush, mountain.

How many float jobs do you see right now? none. How many IFR jobs do you see? dozens. Wouldn't you conclude that this is the situation that the program is set up for?

Find a good paying job and save up for it? What, out there, is good paying, has positions open right now, and wants a lowtime bush pilot. Because to anyone else we are just unskilled labourers. Please think about your comment before spreading a negative attitude. And scamming the system? I think I've paid the ten grand in taxes to cover this by now, thanks.

You'd think that with how difficult this industry can be, that we would be trying to help each other out. A lot of us could benefit from experiences being posted on such a public forum.

Thanks about the search function advice, I didn't realize it was such a hot topic.

[Hedley]

I know a guy who convinced EI to pay for his multi-IFR. What
cinched the deal was that he had a letter from an employer
saying that if he got the rating, they would "consider" hiring
him.

Get that letter. Preferably two. At least print off the "help
wanted" ads on this site that you qualify for (as a result of
your licence and hours) but all that you're missing is your
MIFR.

[185_guy]

Hello
I got my multi-IFR funded last winter by EI. There;s no way i could have worked enough over the winter to save up that kind of dough to do it, that 10g's got me off the EI system (as i'm now working full time flying IFR)

It will take a bit of time for it to all go through. Probably 6-8 weeks at least. You must be established on EI.......have gotten your first cheque.

You will need a letter from an employer saying you will have full time work with this training. I also had letters from a few other companies saying that i would need my multi-IFR to be considered for employment, but i had the rest of the needed experience. I also had a few letters from people who had previously got funding, and how it had worked out for them. (PM me and i'll write ya a letter)
Also print off as many job ads as you can find, preferable in your home area, highlight the fact you meet the requirements except the multi-IFR ( time req's, northern experience etc.) They also are not to keen on funding you in one province, and you going to school in another.
Also, you will have to get quotes from at least 3 different schools, list their pros and cons, and tell them which one you want to go to and why.
Also, you will have to come up with expenses that you;'ll occur while doing your training, such as housing, food, transportation etc. Show them how you are doing it as frugal as possible, and you will be rewarded with a cheque to cover those costs as well.
They may try to tell you they will only pay for a % of the tuition costs. Be prepared to pay 10% or so, to show them you are willing to go and get full time work. If you will have to pay more than that, barter with them.

Like any government thing, the more paperwork you put to them, the happier they will be. Just be prepared with lots to sell yourself.
Good Luck.

Oh yea, the money they give you is considered as income on your taxes. However, the 'tuition' at the flight school should offset that.

[snoopy]

Northern Skies,

Remember that the main purpose of the program is to remove burden (and repeat offenders) from the EI system and get people working in market sectors where there is a demand for skilled workers.

Since you are requesting "free" money, it is worth putting a lot of effort into your presentation if you want to be successful in the application.

First you, want to build up your experience - not downplay as a "low time" pilot. You have 1000 hours of related and valuable experience, which will get you by many company and/or insurance minimums. I assume you bring other skill sets to the table (even outside the aviation industry) which are well presented in a resume. You just need this one rating to open up all the doors.

Next you paint a picture of the market: spend some time here, this is where they look for information: http://www.labourmarketinformation.ca/s ... in&lcode=e

Then, you want to show them all the jobs you can find, where the IFR is required - even better if you can print information off applicable company websites that states minimum requirements that support your application. Search HRDC (enter 2271 in the search function and "all of Canada"), newspapers, COPA, this and other websites that show job listings.

The clincher is any supporting letters or potential job offer letters you can get from industry. One is good, a couple are better. Even rejection letters on the basis of not having the desired rating are good. The company does not have to "guarantee" to hire you, nor are they obligated to hire you - their circumstances could easily change. Even if you don't personally know a company, you can still try getting a letter from a prospective employer with whom you have been in contact. Who knows, it may even turn into a real job - you may impress them with your resourcefulness, and by your success in achieving the rating.

Of course you have to show financial need, and that you have exhausted every resource available to you - including loans. You can let them know you have been rejected as you don't have an income on which to base the loan! Be sure to let them know how much you have already invested in yourself, including the costs of looking for work.

The process takes time, and varies in each instance, but you can put a "rush" on it to some degree by showing that the jobs are out there - NOW! The downside, is that there are many other factors at play - some offices approve certain ratings very easily, others do not. It depends on the province, the office, and budget for the year - how much have they already spent? If they have never heard of aviation, or all the intricacies we face in surviving in this industry, then you will really have your job cut out for you as you will have to educate them. Some offices are very familiar and regularly hand out ratings.

The best recommendation I could give you, is to set up a preliminary interview with the HRDC person with whom you will be working. Remember, this is every bit as important as a job interview - dress and conduct yourself accordingly. Introduce yourself and give a brief outline of what you would like to achieve, your difficulties in doing so, and the rosy market that faces you with your fresh rating. Build a rapport with the person from the start, and pay particular attention to what they seem to know, or not know about the industry - this will help you decide what to build up as you make your case. And remember, the person may appear dumb, but may actually have seen past the "bamboozling" by cleverer people than you, so just be sincere in stating your goals. Have an updated resume with you, and perhaps even a few job ads to start with. At the end, ask them for their help in where to go from here, and send a thank you note (email is fine).

Assuming you get past the first stage - and hopefully you will - continue to treat the relationship as you would a potential employer. Stay in regular contact with the person, and update them of your research/application progress. Be sure to send them a thank you letter if you are successful, and update them of your progress/successful completion. If you do get a job using the rating - be sure to let them know so you make it easier for other people who try for a rating. If they know that people actually do get jobs after the investment, they will be more likely to approve the next application - that is how you can pay back to others like you.

Good luck!

Snoopy

[Hiflyer2]

As an operations manager for a small jet company in the Toronto area let me tell you our experience. I do know that all across the country the situation differs. All of the above posts have relevence. I will tell you what my semi recent experience has been in the Toronto area. It seems that the offices in this area have a fairly cut and dried policy. We hired one fella and they were clear in their policy. They would pay a 7500 dollar wage subsidy once we hired him. That was it. I think that they did this to ensure that he had a job in place and was really going to be out of the system. I am thinking he had to stay off EI for 1 or 2 years after the wage subsidy. It was a bit of a pain in the ass on our part as the (employer) remitting for our 7500.00. but we did get it. This in turn paid for about half of a type rating on a citation. I personally would not go too far out of my way to get this subsidy again cause it involved alot of govenment silliness and is really quite a minute payment in the big picture. If you can pull it off and do better than that 7500 cap go for it. Take everything you can get from this socialist nation before somebody else takes. ie Steven Harper, Dalton Mcginty or any one of the oen handed crooked politicians. Good Luck and if you need a letter from me send me a PM. I am not hiring anyone right now but would be more than willing to write the letter that you would meet the qualifications with said rating blah blah blah

[stopsquawk]

I think the process and your chances of success depend a lot on the region and HRDC office you happen to be dealing with. I know a couple of guys who have had complete type ratings paid for ($14,000!!!!) without nearly the amount of preparation or demonstration of need that Snoopy suggests. They needed a letter from the prospective employer of "intent to hire" once they received the required training, and they had to show proof that they had booked and paid for the course in order to be approved. I'm sure these guys didn't have to claim poverty or lack of other funding, because I'lll guarantee they both had the money in the bank to pay.

They had to be recieving EI benefits at the time.

I would suggest a visit to your local HRDC office. I think the approval method varies greatly with location.

[Mr. North]

RatherBeFlyingInCanada said

whats the point in scamming the system? EI is there for the people that need it, just find a good paying job and save up for it.

I said it before and I'll say it again... By exercising your right to apply for financial support you are NOT scamming the system. For those of you who share RatherBeFlyingInCanada's opinion please read the following.

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2004/11/2 ... 41123.html

And consider for a moment how much money an individual contributes to EI over a lifetime versus a one-time payment of 10 grand (max). I rest my case.

[groundtoflightdeck]

I went in with a presentation. Showed what I had and how their money could make me more marketable and get me off EI permemntly. They said here's 8g let us know what you did with it. I ended up getting hired somewhere where they didn't need any extra ratings, so I gave the money back. I can tell you that in the deacde follwoing that I would have paid it all back to EI and then some.

Its insurance right? You pay a premium and then someday you claim on it, if you pay into insurance you should use it when you need. Not using it would be like crashing your car and saying well I don't want to take the money from the pot.

Remember one day you'll make your 6 figures and you put 1 or 2k in a year, draw now while you can!

[NWONT]

I'll stand with Ratherbeflying on this one. We all pay into EI as insurance in case we find ourselves unemployed and unable to feed and house ourselves for short periods. You people are parasites. Many of you refuse to work in the off season simply because you find labor jobs " unrewarding". Just because its there dosen't make it right for you to take. If you convince EI that you will never work unless the rest of us pay for your training makes me sick. People like you slam someone who has taken out a loan to get a PPC yet you see nothing wrong with riding on the rest of us for your training. I'd hire him over you regardless of what Doc says. There is another thread going great guns as we speak slamming SOME NOT ALL of our native people for riding the system and taking whatever they can get. What makes you different from them. If you need money take out a loan or go talk to the guy who says he's got a job for you. Get him to pony up, then let him deduct it from you pay gradually. I'm sure you will feel better for it.

[Stinky]

I had the MIFR paid for in the Toronto area. As previous posters wrote, 3 letters from proffesionals in the industry, 3 letters from employers that would hire someone with my new qualification. No written job offer. It's called Skills Development, a previous post regarding employer subsidies is a different program I believe.

As far as scamming the system, what a BS comment. As soon as I finished the rating I had a job and haven't been on EI since. I pay a lot of tax, I qualified for the program and as a taxpayer I don't object to having my taxes go to helping other people become taxpayers as opposed to burdens. It's a smart investment.

[NWONT]

This system was once called UI unemployment insurance, someone thought this sounded too negative so it was changed to EI. It was never meant as a slush fund for renting aircraft. If the surplus is so great then obviously our paycheck deductions should be reduced.

[Stinky]

This from the EI website:

The Canada Employment Insurance Commission (CEIC) is an entity under the umbrella of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development (known as Human Resources and Skills Development Canada or HRSDC). Its main role is to assist HRSDC in managing the Employment Insurance Program.

Today, the Commission finds its basis for existence under the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development Act (assented to on July 20, 2005). Under section 24 of the departmental Act, the Commission, as required by the Minister of HRSDC or by an Act of Parliament (e.g. the Employment Insurance (EI) Act), exercises such powers and performs such duties and functions in relation to:
employment insurance
employment services
the development and utilization of labour market resources

It's not a "slush fund to rent aircraft"
It's investing tax dollars wisely, it worked in my case and many others I know of.

[Floats]

EI should be a last resort. I hate that float pilots think because there is no work in the winter, they are entitled to a handout. If your a young guy loading diesal drums and propane tanks all summer, you are sure as hell fit to do anything else. Go and get a job, work contruction, or anything. I have never in my life gone on EI, never plan too either. But since I started flying professionally, I have had to do many shitty, demeaning unrelated to aviation jobs.
Yes we pay too much in EI premiums, I personally would like too never pay it again. So I dont give a shit if you cant save enough in the winter to pay for a multi IFR. Guess what I cant afford a lot of things I would like. But where does this sense of entitlement come from, like somehow the govt owes you a clear path to a job, you want to do.

[Hedley]

UI (or whatever it's called this week) and CPP are simply extra federal income tax. It all goes the same place as federal income tax.

Wasn't it Paul Martin that lowered income tax by a point or two, then increased UI and CPP by two or three points? He claimed that he lowered taxes, but you'd have to be pretty stupid to buy into that rhetoric - the government ended up taking home more money, and you ended up taking home less. That's called a tax increase.

And that's exactly what UI and CPP are - taxes.

[Cat Driver]

[quote]This system was once called UI unemployment insurance, someone thought this sounded too negative so it was changed to EI. It was never meant as a slush fund for renting aircraft. If the surplus is so great then obviously our paycheck deductions should be reduced.[/quote]

Exactly:

[Edo]

This is a link to to a study HRDC did in 2001 - commerical pilots in canada. Quote the revelant sections about cost and finical burdens in you proposal.

http://www.flying-colors.org/ATAC/2793-1.pdf

[double-j]

LETS ALL DO THIS!! Maybe EI can pay for our ppc's at regency, I'm sure they would have written a letter.

If you guys can fly floats all summer and get float-like pay, you sure can pay for your ratings like we all did.

This thread makes me sick.

[Northern Skies]

If you guys can fly floats all summer and get float-like pay, you sure can pay for your ratings like we all did."

$2200/month. This was after a raise from $2000. Average this into about 28 days out of 31, and call it a 9 hour day: $8.73/hour.

This thread was not made to discuss our misgivings about the socialist policies in our government. The money is there, and someone is going to get it. I would also rather that we just paid less taxes and had less programs, but the fact has to be faced that this is how the system works. Some use it, some abuse it, and some whine about it. I am going to let it serve its intended purpose and nothing more. Plus, wouldn't I be paying a lot more income tax and supporting the society as say, a caravan driver, than I would working at a gas station 6 months of the year? I am done with wasting my time trying to justify this to you.

Thank you all for the excellent advice, there were some fantastic points that I had not thought of. Please keep it coming. And thank you for the offers of supporting letters. Pm's will be sent tonight.

[Redneck_pilot86]

I'm in the same boat as you, roughly 1000 hours, all float time since CPL, and looking into getting funding as well. Keep me up to date on anything you learn, and I will do the same for you. I'm in SWO now.

[Northern Skies]

Sure, I have no problem with that, It's not like we're competing or anything.

[Floats]

Why dont kids just come out of highschool, get a letter from the government saying they will hire them if they go to medical school. or a letter from a lawyer saying they would hire them if they went to law school.
Essentially any career, you could justify this way using your argument.

And back to this, cant afford it on your salary bullshit. I dont care, get a line of credit. If dont care if you cant pay it off for 10 years. Stop abusing the system. Th government should not be paying for any training in any job. People need to take responsibility for themselves.

As for the citation operator, You are getting the govt to subsidize your pilots salary? Are you F&*king kidding me. Keep lining your own pockets. If you are not making enough to cover salaries, then you are not doing a very good job. makes me wonder if you are skimping on maintenance too

[Floats]

If you dont like the word scamming. Just because you are allowed to take the money, doesnt mean you should.
I believe we should have a social safety net, too help those that have hit rock bottom as a temporary measure to get them back going again.
Unfortunitley, our govt has not done a good job at regulating it.

I kinda look at it like a penny dish. everybody adds to it. everyone is allowed to take from it. But its really there for the person who is short a penny.

Im not just talking about getting EI to pay for a rating, What the hell are you doing on EI in the first place. You are abusing the system, you dont need it. Get a fucking job. I dont care if you are a pilot now, and above all those labour jobs.

So, go ahead and collect whatever you feel you are entitled too. However, I know in the past when I have interviewed pilots, I have asked them what they did in between float seasons. Those who gave me the EI answer, I then suggest they go back on EI, cause I aint hiring them.

Floats

[Northern Skies]

I believe I am being misunderstood by "floats". I said I was done with defending myself, but the way s/he wrote it made me want to respond.

I spent the past two winters working in unrelated jobs. I never sat around all winter on EI. I paid for my CPL including tidal float and mountain/gravel strip flying, through working very hard in "labour" jobs. In fact, "labour" can describe my flying jobs too.

There is a difference between a series of jobs and a career. Flying is a career that eventually progresses into a position of higher qualifications. A series of jobs are not. After 3 years of going back and forth, I can see that it just doesn't work. It only delays being broke and jobless. Being underemployed and unemployed are very similar cases.
I started in august to open up a dialogue with many companies who I targeted because they fly aircraft that I am licensed for, year round. I used an organized, persistent plan of action. I am still doing so. All of the "bites" are seasonal interest for next spring. The positions do not exist at this time. The season ended, the lodge is closed, the owners moved south, and I am broke and jobless. Now how is it that someone in this situation is above accepting some assistance? If you think that having some help when needed is too immoral for your high employment standards, whoever you are, than I probably don't want to work for you. Don't flatter yourself.

I know that a lot of you had it harder than me, and I'm sure you ate all of the food that was put in front of you too.

by the way, I applied for lines of credit to pay for this and have been denied.