RNP Prince George
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
RNP Prince George
With the ILS being down in Prince George, the lowest we can get down in 600ish agl and the approach ban takes effect @ a mile. I'm wondering if Westjet's RNP approaches into YXS get them lower?
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NewtonCentre
- Rank 1
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:23 am
- Location: Vancouver ACC
I'm ATC (YVR ACC) and control the yxs sector. Right now even the RNP33 is not available (by notam), which is a pain for us and you that we have to send you all the way around via the VOR.
Otherwise, Go Guns we can actually get you down to 5600 ASL (3400 AGL) around voles, or even lower if we vector a bit southwest of Voles (4800 ASL/2600 AGL).
We still have many aircraft requesting the LOC(BC) onto 33 because it's not notamed off, but since the ILS15 is unservicable, there is no localizer to fly a back-course on- so it's automatically unauthorized as well.
To westjet pilots - why do you sometimes ask for the RNP and other times do a traditional approach - I'm not talking about when the weather is bad, or with the situation as it is now with half the approaches not authorized - but otherwise.
It's the same at CYLW, I'll often clear a WJ to IGSOB for RNP16, and then the WJ will ask for WTMAN - and of course if I clear you to WTMAN then you ask for IGSOB - is it just pilot preference or are there other criteria. Lately I've just been asking "where would you like to be cleared today?" which works fine, but it'd be beneficial to understand the thought process.
Otherwise, Go Guns we can actually get you down to 5600 ASL (3400 AGL) around voles, or even lower if we vector a bit southwest of Voles (4800 ASL/2600 AGL).
We still have many aircraft requesting the LOC(BC) onto 33 because it's not notamed off, but since the ILS15 is unservicable, there is no localizer to fly a back-course on- so it's automatically unauthorized as well.
To westjet pilots - why do you sometimes ask for the RNP and other times do a traditional approach - I'm not talking about when the weather is bad, or with the situation as it is now with half the approaches not authorized - but otherwise.
It's the same at CYLW, I'll often clear a WJ to IGSOB for RNP16, and then the WJ will ask for WTMAN - and of course if I clear you to WTMAN then you ask for IGSOB - is it just pilot preference or are there other criteria. Lately I've just been asking "where would you like to be cleared today?" which works fine, but it'd be beneficial to understand the thought process.
Some is pilot preference. Sometimes an aircraft MEL or RNP values will not allow for the approach. There are also a few out there think you need to do a full set up and briefing (when you don't need to) with the intention of breaking visual and the regular approach selection requires a few less steps.
In my opinion it will be more normal to see the RNP's done the majority of the time with age and experience.
I personally try and start out on the RNP no matter what, as its the most efficient way to the airport with best power/drag management. However, if I'm flying with an FO who prefers to set up for a traditional ILS or back course I don't interfere or question their decision as its just as safe and doesn't directly impact anything other than annoying a forward thinking AT Controller.
In my opinion it will be more normal to see the RNP's done the majority of the time with age and experience.
I personally try and start out on the RNP no matter what, as its the most efficient way to the airport with best power/drag management. However, if I'm flying with an FO who prefers to set up for a traditional ILS or back course I don't interfere or question their decision as its just as safe and doesn't directly impact anything other than annoying a forward thinking AT Controller.
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Ryan Coke2
- Rank 3
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:45 pm
I pretty much just wanted to agree with what WJ700 said. Some guys are a little less comfortable with the RNP stuff, so it may seem like more work than just setting up for a traditional approach, especially when they are just planning to do a visual.
I am the same as WJ700, I basically set up for either an ILS or an RNP, depending on what is available (except for YLW, where the RNP is better than the ILS). And that is regardless of whether I am planning a visual or not.
Same thing with what initial waypoint that is requested--it depends on an indiviual comfort level, as well as what RV alt we expect to be cleared to. Keep in mind, that whatever waypoint you clear us to, it would help out a lot if we can get cleared to an altitude below the gradient path for that waypoint. I am not sure how much detail you have on the approach, but it is similar to clearing someone for an ILS, if you vector someone on to final above the slope, it does cause some difficulty.
RNP is a learning process for the pilots just as it is for the controllers.
I am the same as WJ700, I basically set up for either an ILS or an RNP, depending on what is available (except for YLW, where the RNP is better than the ILS). And that is regardless of whether I am planning a visual or not.
Same thing with what initial waypoint that is requested--it depends on an indiviual comfort level, as well as what RV alt we expect to be cleared to. Keep in mind, that whatever waypoint you clear us to, it would help out a lot if we can get cleared to an altitude below the gradient path for that waypoint. I am not sure how much detail you have on the approach, but it is similar to clearing someone for an ILS, if you vector someone on to final above the slope, it does cause some difficulty.
RNP is a learning process for the pilots just as it is for the controllers.
Another thing... just like AC we're constantly hiring. You could very well be vectoring a newer person or someone even on line indoc... where the ILS/BC/NDB approach is familiar and the RNP is from another planet.
When someone is trying to keep up with any new airplane they tend to go with what is familiar to them for a little brain load shedding.
When someone is trying to keep up with any new airplane they tend to go with what is familiar to them for a little brain load shedding.
Here's my two cents to RNp usage especially in YLW. If I'm coming in from the west for 16 I find the ILS works a bit easier than the RNP. Less track miles in my mind. Coming in from the east, the RNP curves you in short of WTMAN. This is what I do but if an FO wanted to RNP it's his/her call. You'll also find that some guys allow the aircraft to fly the speeds computed in the FMC while others speed intervene and fly the approach faster. When I know I'm switching to the last controller prior to approach clearnace I check in with my stats and then state what my approach intent is. Probably not the best radio practice but it seems to stop short subsequent transmissions of you and me trying to sort out what I want and what you need.
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NewtonCentre
- Rank 1
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:23 am
- Location: Vancouver ACC
Great info guys -
CCR - I think it's actually a great practice to state your intentions on initial contact - then we don't spend a minute going back and forth trying to figure out where you want to go.
For CYLW, coming from the west, we almost always clear aircraft to a point on the approach (IGSOB, WTMAN LWxxx), from the East, Most WJA flights are already flying to MATIP or ADRUP - so unless you want something different then you don't really need to tell us, but it's always appreciated.
We've all noticed the speed differences - when you guys first started flying the RNP approaches, we were all very surprised by the slow speeds - now we've noticed that sometimes WJA slows right down, and other times seems to fly normal speeds...
CCR - I think it's actually a great practice to state your intentions on initial contact - then we don't spend a minute going back and forth trying to figure out where you want to go.
For CYLW, coming from the west, we almost always clear aircraft to a point on the approach (IGSOB, WTMAN LWxxx), from the East, Most WJA flights are already flying to MATIP or ADRUP - so unless you want something different then you don't really need to tell us, but it's always appreciated.
We've all noticed the speed differences - when you guys first started flying the RNP approaches, we were all very surprised by the slow speeds - now we've noticed that sometimes WJA slows right down, and other times seems to fly normal speeds...
