Quickest Route to Jazz

[want2fly]

Just wondering if anyone could give me a rough estimate as to how long it would take someone (me) to get from 250 hours, to a right seat at Jazz.
Here are the facts: I'm in first year of university in London, Ontario, and plan on getting my private license this summer, commercial 2 summers afterwards, and maybe an instructor rating around graduation with 250 hours roughly(4 year program). I'm obviously willing to work long days at low pay starting out, and would like to know when I could expect a call from Jazz. Also, I am really hoping not to have to go the bush pilot route or work in a town up north I've never heard of (London, ON is small enough). This may sound picky but I am intersted to know if this is possible and in what time frame. Jazz is definately my first choice before moving on to Air Canada (in my dreams) because of their destinations, and the ability to live and be based out of Toronto. Well my rambling is done, but all comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thank-you.

[want2fly]

BTW, i currently only have 30 mins logged (intro flight) - the 250 hours are what i hope to have upon graduation

[Ray-Ban]

You game plan has long term written all over it.

First off is money. If Mom and dad are paying for for University and flight training, good for you. 1 year of univ. plus PPL = $$$$. If your parents don't pay, how do you expect to hold a job to pay for your PPL traing in one summer?? consider wx, maint. motivation.

Second... Jazz doesn't take 250 hrs pilots unless you come from Seneca College Program So then you will need their mins to apply which I think are 1500 hrs.

I think you are looking at at least 7+ years for Jazz to call.

Welcome to aviation

[thrust set]

"Jazz doesn't take 250 hrs pilots unless you come from Seneca College Program So then you will need their mins to apply which I think are 1500 hrs."

Just trying to clear this conception that it is just "Seneca College" that Jazz selected their college students from. I thought it was a number of colleges in Canada , Seneca, Mount Royal, Sault College.....etc

Maybe someone from Jazz could comment.

[want2fly]

no i understand its only Seneca students that get hired at 250 hours, but am wondering how long it would take to get the 1500 hrs quickly without leaving civilization.

[mighty mouse]

Flight craft will take you with 250 hours if you're willing to do night freight.

having said that, this place is the furthest thing from a career company (unless you have to), but it is a good stepping stone into a decent airline.

[Dizzy]

1) The college grads that were hired came from four colleges in Canada. Two colleges each sent three, with one each from the other two.

2) 1500 hours sounds right for now, but years from now? Could be 250, could be 10000. Depends on how this industry runs doesn't it?

[TopperHarley]

It took me about 3.5 yrs of working to get the call. I started out with my instructor rating and worked at my flight school in dispatch for a very short stint, got a job doing aerial photography and did that for just over a year, went to work the ramp up north for 14 months, and have been flying the last 14 months.

They seem to be calling lower time guys now. I have a little over 1800hrs, but I know others who have recently gone through the interview or groundschool with less.

[ditshisturber]

The quicker you can get the licenses done, get your first job, get your minimum time... the better! Who's to say what will happen in 3 year's time. The music could suddenly stop, with the 2009 AC pilot contracts.

Get goin' and good luck!

[. .]

On your way up don't let the people with uninformed petty attitudes get you down. You'll find that there's lots of people on here, and out there that will try and make you feel like crap for doing what they did in less time or somehow not having to endure the same indignities that they did.

On that note, as someone has already correctly posted, there were many colleges Jazz hired from this fall. Seneca was not the only one, but was well represented.

[RIMsky]

My word of advice would be that you get your instructor rating as soon as possible, maybe even after PPL and your CPL (I am not sure if this can work, but you could always try and find out). In my case, it's the path that I am planning to take. Get my instructors rating after my PPL and CPL if possible, do school in the meantime, and try to find a flight school to hire me as an instructor. By instructing, you can build up hours fairly fast, if not VERY fast. I met an instructor, and on average, according to the weather he told me that he was building about 25-30 hours/week. If you go at that rate you can be the star that you want to be. There are so many varieties, and like I have been told, it's all about the people you know. I, myself, work at Bank, and we have a great number of people coming in and out everyday. I always make sure to keep close contact with the clients, make sure to smile and develope a good customer rep/client bond so that maybe one day, I will stumble on that person that actually deals with my bank and has the link into the world of aviation, that will say, hey, give me a call once you're done with flight school and University. From the way I see it, your best hope is to start on low standards, take the time, get a ramp job, and like others have said, slowly get to flying. I, for a fact, heard of a friend that got a job at Air Inuit, right after flight school and she now flies a King Air back and forth everyday. It's all about being at the right place at the right time. Be top notch every single day, visit schools, stay up to date on applications. Make sure that you keep a positive attitude, in interviews the person that is interviewing you has interviewed 2000 others before and will do so after you, thus a positive attitude is key.

As for Seneca, I think that they are mainly getting hired for the fact that they have the aviation degree. You are equally advantaged for getting a degree in London, Ontario. Don't think that just because you didn't go to an aviation program, that your degree is worth krap. In the long run I am positive that you can make it. Also, watch out, many people will try to give you BS here if you tell them that you're motivated, I experienced it myself, and to be frank, listening to them is the worst possible thing you could do. Be ambitious, be witty, and stick your head out of that crowd, for all I know, aviation is all about who you are and what you want to be. As long as you're motivated and ambitious you can do it.

The other possibility here for you would be to get a type rating. Again, people that stink of jealousy will bash at you for it, full of envy. Once again, vaporize their comments, make them dissappear because they will only try to put you down. This is a competitive industry and if you're going to be successfull, it's going to be applied as <survival>. Equipe yourself with as much as you can. If you can, take an extra language course, put that to your pack of extras. If you already speak a good number of languages invest the money in a part-time degree or some courses related to aviation. You can never be overly qualified, but also you have to take into account that the younger you pierce into the industry, the better it is for you. By the age of 33-34 you might as well be living that dream of yours. Even if you don't permit yourself the type rating, you could always take the plunge and jump down the black hole of perdition, get a loan, and end up with a job on a 737-xxx or A3xx, but then again, not having any hours on the type could get you no job offer at all, and that could hurt down the line. IF you do get that job, your loans will easily vaporize themself after maybe a year or two of intensive payments, but you will be, in the best possible outcome, paying them off really really fast. The main thing here is to take a good look at what you want, write down a plan and stick to it. Once you've got that, you've got to follow it crucially. Make a lot of friends if you can, and be friends with them as well, it's those people that will help you out eventually, and one day it'll be your turn to give back, and when that day comes, please make sure you do.



Go kick somee a$$ !

Cheers,

RIMsky

[. .]

you cannot instruct with a private license. VERY few instructors can pull 30hrs per week. That would most likely be for a busy week at a busy school. The math just doesn't work out for that to be a yearly average.

[RIMsky]

RIM SKY

get your shit together, thats the gayest post ive ever read

you cant get a instructor rating after your PPL, you need a commercial licence first

working the ramp isnt "low standards" its just another perfectly good way to get started in this career

You're right. I modified it, and it now sounds correct. I omitted to mention it. Maybe you should try to find a way to cohere your own posts. Phrase them better, a bit more polite? That could help down the line. Instead of bashing back at somebody, which makes a humanly mistake, you could do like the moderator above, and say it politely. Anyways, that is only my opinion, if you apply it or not, is all up to you.

Cheers!

[want2fly]

Thanks to all for the suggestions, and good luck with your careers as well! From what I gather, is a move to the north inevitable?

[TopperHarley]

The above is good advice, especially what endless said. I would however NOT recommend on buying your own type rating nor any PPC for that matter. Save your money, it can be put to much better use.

Jazz is hiring like crazy right now. It's hard to think that just over a year ago I was still on the ramp.

Enjoy your time in London at UWO, best city in Canada!

[TopperHarley]

Thanks to all for the suggestions, and good luck with your careers as well! From what I gather, is a move to the north inevitable?

You can avoid moving north. I have some friends that are doing well and have never lived farther north than Toronto. There's cargojet, airsprint, LCE, georgian, etc. Instruct for a bit, build your time then apply to these companies.

Just understand that by going north, advancement and pay often tend to happen a lot quicker compared to places down south. Those who are willing to go north often tend to move back south and get the better jobs ahead of those who stayed south. It's all a trade-off I guess. I never thought I would have moved north or work the ramp, but I was in YTH for 2.5 years. Now that I'm living in a "big" city again, I find myself wishing I was back up, despite the -40C weather!

[loadshed]

The other possibility here for you would be to get a type rating. Again, people that stink of jealousy will bash at you for it, full of envy. Once again, vaporize their comments
RIMsky

of course RIMsky you could quit adding to the degradation of terms and conditions within the industry and allow the EMPLOYER to pay for your training instead of forking over your cash without looking at the bigger picture. It is the airlines responsibility to fund the training for their employees.
Take a look at the situation in Europe with the flood of low-time guys paying for their own type rating to the point where it has become the norm. Many companines over there demand that pilots fund their own type rating. They allowed it to happen to themselves. Pilots here are in a better position now to negotiate their terms (salary/conditions etc.)
Since you are so full of suggestions - here's one for you....keep your willingness to pay for your own type on the down-low or you may just find it has the opposite effect for you in your own initial job search.

[RIMsky]

The other possibility here for you would be to get a type rating. Again, people that stink of jealousy will bash at you for it, full of envy. Once again, vaporize their comments
RIMsky

are you for real??
of course RIMsky you could quit adding to the degradation of terms and conditions within the industry and allow the EMPLOYER to pay for your training instead of forking over your cash without looking at the bigger picture. It is the airlines responsibility to fund the training for their employees. Period.
Take a look at the situation in Europe with the flood of low-time guys paying for their own type rating to the point where it has become the norm. Many companines over there demand that pilots fund their own type rating. They allowed it to happen to themselves. We don't need guys like you starting that kind of BS here, particularly now that the industry is moving in terms of hiring. Pilots are in a better position now to negotiate their terms (salary/conditions etc.)
Since you are so full of suggestions - here's one for you....keep your willingness to pay for your own type on the down-low or you may just find it has the opposite effect for you in your own initial job search. Many CP's will show you the door.....and rightly so.
Full of envy my a**.
End of rant

Good to hear what you have to say. The places where you do get the type rating, most often will make sure you find a job. It is part of the deal you sign. How loyal are they to their promise? I have yet to find out. People know these oportunities exist. I am not the one you should point out. Maybe you should take fellow friends and actually go protest around these companies, tell them to make it only accessible for the airlines to send their pilots there. If a service is available, and one is willing to pay for it, they have every right to. It's as if you woudl be saying: Sir! Do not get a University diploma! Although it does help you, it's gonna put to shame other pilots because it'll raise the bar for the fewer ones that took another way and did it out of highschool! The best thing to have is a back-up plan! And guess what? I'd rather fall on something good than fall on thin ice. I'll keep it down, this being the last time I respond to something about a type rating, or even suggest. If I want and willing to work 18 hours a day to get a piece of paper saying I have qualities and training allowing me to operate a certain aircraft, then God help me, I will get it.

End of rant!

[chipmunk]

The other possibility here for you would be to get a type rating. Again, people that stink of jealousy will bash at you for it, full of envy. Once again, vaporize their comments
RIMsky

are you for real??
of course RIMsky you could quit adding to the degradation of terms and conditions within the industry and allow the EMPLOYER to pay for your training instead of forking over your cash without looking at the bigger picture. It is the airlines responsibility to fund the training for their employees. Period.
Take a look at the situation in Europe with the flood of low-time guys paying for their own type rating to the point where it has become the norm. Many companines over there demand that pilots fund their own type rating. They allowed it to happen to themselves. We don't need guys like you starting that kind of BS here, particularly now that the industry is moving in terms of hiring. Pilots are in a better position now to negotiate their terms (salary/conditions etc.)
Since you are so full of suggestions - here's one for you....keep your willingness to pay for your own type on the down-low or you may just find it has the opposite effect for you in your own initial job search. Many CP's will show you the door.....and rightly so.
Full of envy my a**.
End of rant

Good to hear what you have to say. The places where you do get the type rating, most often will make sure you find a job. It is part of the deal you sign. How loyal are they to their promise? I have yet to find out. People know these oportunities exist. I am not the one you should point out. Maybe you should take fellow friends and actually go protest around these companies, tell them to make it only accessible for the airlines to send their pilots there. If a service is available, and one is willing to pay for it, they have every right to. It's as if you woudl be saying: Sir! Do not get a University diploma! Although it does help you, it's gonna put to shame other pilots because it'll raise the bar for the fewer ones that took another way and did it out of highschool! The best thing to have is a back-up plan! And guess what? I'd rather fall on something good than fall on thin ice. I'll keep it down, this being the last time I respond to something about a type rating, or even suggest. If I want and willing to work 18 hours a day to get a piece of paper saying I have qualities and training allowing me to operate a certain aircraft, then God help me, I will get it.

End of rant!

Rimsky, Rimsky...
I could probably teach a monkey how to fly an airplane, and with enough money, anyone off the street could probably get a type rating (look at John Travolta for example.) Flying is not hard.

What cannot be taught is experience and maturity, both of which come from starting at the "bottom" and doing the type of flying that just stretches you just a little bit... i.e. start with right seat in a King Air, or even left seat in a single piston... And then once you're comfortable... move "up" again - i.e. left seat in the King Air or the like. You need to learn about weather, decision making, work ethic and professionalism, how to deal with fellow crew and passengers, how to act and react like an adult, and a whole lot more that they can't teach you at "Joe's Type Rating School."

And think about it - if you skip right to the big jets after your MIFR/CPL, that's probably what you'll do your whole career... wouldn't that be insanely boring? I find there's nothing more fun than hand-flying my twin turbo-prop at 400 feet above the ground (something called "survey flying" so yes, it is completely legal.) But, when I do get tired of that, there are a few other types of flying I want to try. For me - it's all about enjoying the ride... and my life.

There are so many kids - yes I'll call them kids - these days that feel that they are owed something in this industry. Is it because that there are just so many jobs now that are accessible for the relatively low time guy? I think that adds to it. It's frustrating to see these attitudes just because not too many years ago, just after 9/11, I was in the same position as you were and trust me - it was very different. Many of those with the "I feel owed something" attitudes just dropped out of the picture because it was "too hard" and they didn't feel like they should do real work - i.e. arriving early to de-ice airplanes so you could be ready for your first student...

Oh - those companies that promise a job on completion of a type rating? Remember, they're in a BUSINESS and that is one way they can attract people like you to them... just read the fine print and I can guarantee that they're not guaranteeing a job at all costs. Seriously -- if you are a complete a-hole, will you get hired?

Enough preaching for me this Sunday morning.
Apologies for any hijack... I suppose I should have put this in your type rating thread.

[want2fly]

Okay, so it looks like staying in Southwestern Ontario isn't the best plan. How long then would I be stuck in the North before getting a call from Jazz if I were to go that route? Assuming I have around 1000TT from flight instructing before making the move to the North. Or would those hours not make much of a difference?

[Dim]

I just threw up a little in my mouth

[want2fly]

BTW what I mean by the hours not meaning much is would it be better to skip the instructing hours and go straight to the North, or will the instructing hours be a significant asset?

[Grey_Wolf]

Well if your aim is Jazz, then skipping the instructing phase will leave you short of PIC needed for your ATPL.

IMHO, go the instructing route and build enough PIC, Night PIC, XC Night PIC to meet the ATPL requirements an then go up North.

[qwert]

try suicide... its better than a career in Aviation...

[beast]

Jazz's 1500 hour minimum is on its last legs. As soon as you have completed your commercial and multi-ifr training, apply to get yourself on file. Continue checking up with them (politely) as your hour count increases. Do this with any airlines you'd like to work for, it is a good way to get to know the recruitment people, and a fine first impression will get you to the top of the pile once the minimum starts coming down.