THE OFFICIAL Is an AME an Engineer thread

[BoostedNihilist]

Be it resolved that the term 'engineer' should be used to describe a person who works on aircraft and aircraft engines.

[CID]

Can an engineer be an AME?

[BoostedNihilist]

Can an engineer be an ame?

Why not? If he has the qualification then yes.

Just as a mining engineer would have to take a civil engineering program to do civil engineering

[ahramin]

You are getting way ahead of yourself. The word engineer is derived from latin pertaining to invention. The engine in question is something doing work, not the colloquial English definition of internal combustion engine. An aircraft is an engine just as much as its engine is. The only time the word engineer is used to describe something pertaining to the colloquial English engine is when it is describing the operator of such an engine: Locomotive Engineer.

In addition, an engineer would know the difference between an and and.

[BoostedNihilist]

Yeah, when you type 145 wpm things slip through the cracks, mind editing that for me?

[ourkid2000]

Someone asked "when was the last time you saw an AME perform Engineering"......

Well, a while back we were installing a new system in the cockpit of our aircraft and, while using the approved engineering designed illustrations to install the wiring runs, myself and my coworker felt that the runs were far too close to some moving flight controls. We did some measurements and the limits were too close and not in conformance with regulations.

Well, between the two of us we decided that we were going to move the wiring runs to a safer area. We consulted the "engineers" and they agreed with us. The wiring runs were moved.

What would something like this be called? Anywho.....I don't care what you call us.

[Strega]

the only beef I have is when AME's call themselves "engineers"

An AME is not an engineer, they are an "Aircraft maint Engineer" and should be refered to as such.

There is a difference.

As for moving some wiring runs,, good on you, we need more AMEs like you that use your head when working.

[ad81]

When someone asks me what I do my reply is aircraft mechanic, everyone I've told that to has a general idea of what I do with that reply. I don't care what we are called as long as my credentials are given the recognition they deserve.

[dashx]

Since BM is close to BCIT lets see what BCIT has to offer:

http://www.bcit.ca/study/programs/1010dipts

16 month course. Last time I checked an engineering program at most universities was 48 months (4 years).

Students prepare for a career in Aircraft Maintenance and begin to qualify for an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (AME) - Category 'M' license. AMEs are responsible for the release (certification) of an aeronautical product (aircraft), after maintenance or inspection. It is a responsible job that includes a variety of tasks including removing and installing components and troubleshooting complex systems. A qualified AME is able to maintain small aircraft, helicopters, and large transport category aircraft. Larger aircraft are quite sophisticated as they possess many different electrical, electronic, pneumatic, hydraulic, mechanical and propulsion systems, and the AME must understand and maintain them.

No mention of designing aircraft or any components.

Overall, through year 2005, aircraft mechanics particularly those with work experience are expected to have excellent job opportunities

Why even BCIT refers to aircraft mechanics in this quote. Well I would hope even an "Institute of Technology" would use consistent and correct terminology.

Now let me see Centennial College (no mention of university here) but I pretty much know what they have there so.....

Seneca College (there's that second word....but the Avionics program has been dead now for what ? 14 .. 15 years.. Ah Mr Parmeshwar.....)

Confederation College. Well looky here.......

http://www.confederationc.on.ca/aerospa ... efault.asp

Aerospace Manufacturing Engineering Technologist
3-year, Ontario College Advanced Diploma Program

and their function:

"An aerospace technologist works alongside engineers and shop floor personnel and will manage projects while resolving manufacturing problems as they arise."


Aerospace Manufacturing Engineering Technician
2-year, Ontario College Diploma Program

And their function:

"An aerospace technician works alongside engineers and shop floor personnel and will manage projects while resolving manufacturing problems as they arise"

How about the M category?

"Career categories include prospective positions such as aircraft maintenance engineers (AME), aircraft inspectors, aircraft gas turbine engine technicians and aircraft structural repair technicians."

But are they engineers?

Just because you re route wires does not make you an engineer. You still had to consult the engineers and they agreed that it was the correct thing to do (after all they are human and not perfect). In your case they showed they were not arrogant and "their way is best".

I said it before and I will say it again. You are an aircraft mechanic. If you want (or need) to use the three words to elevate yourself to a higher level then so be it.

Is anyone familiar with the story "The emperor's new clothes"?

Well old chaps it is time for a spot of tea. Merry Christmas and all that...

[Cat Driver]

Why would there be any arguments about what AME means.

An AME has to have so much more knowledge to be good at his trade than a pilot needs, the discussion is senseless.

A better discussion would be should we call pilots drivers.

[Strega]

Since BM is close to BCIT lets see what BCIT has to offer:

http://www.bcit.ca/study/programs/1010dipts

16 month course. Last time I checked an engineering program at most universities was 48 months (4 years).

Students prepare for a career in Aircraft Maintenance and begin to qualify for an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (AME) - Category 'M' license. AMEs are responsible for the release (certification) of an aeronautical product (aircraft), after maintenance or inspection. It is a responsible job that includes a variety of tasks including removing and installing components and troubleshooting complex systems. A qualified AME is able to maintain small aircraft, helicopters, and large transport category aircraft. Larger aircraft are quite sophisticated as they possess many different electrical, electronic, pneumatic, hydraulic, mechanical and propulsion systems, and the AME must understand and maintain them.

No mention of designing aircraft or any components.

Overall, through year 2005, aircraft mechanics particularly those with work experience are expected to have excellent job opportunities

Why even BCIT refers to aircraft mechanics in this quote. Well I would hope even an "Institute of Technology" would use consistent and correct terminology.

Now let me see Centennial College (no mention of university here) but I pretty much know what they have there so.....

Seneca College (there's that second word....but the Avionics program has been dead now for what ? 14 .. 15 years.. Ah Mr Parmeshwar.....)

Confederation College. Well looky here.......

http://www.confederationc.on.ca/aerospa ... efault.asp

Aerospace Manufacturing Engineering Technologist
3-year, Ontario College Advanced Diploma Program

and their function:

"An aerospace technologist works alongside engineers and shop floor personnel and will manage projects while resolving manufacturing problems as they arise."


Aerospace Manufacturing Engineering Technician
2-year, Ontario College Diploma Program

And their function:

"An aerospace technician works alongside engineers and shop floor personnel and will manage projects while resolving manufacturing problems as they arise"

How about the M category?

"Career categories include prospective positions such as aircraft maintenance engineers (AME), aircraft inspectors, aircraft gas turbine engine technicians and aircraft structural repair technicians."

But are they engineers?

Just because you re route wires does not make you an engineer. You still had to consult the engineers and they agreed that it was the correct thing to do (after all they are human and not perfect). In your case they showed they were not arrogant and "their way is best".

I said it before and I will say it again. You are an aircraft mechanic. If you want (or need) to use the three words to elevate yourself to a higher level then so be it.

Is anyone familiar with the story "The emperor's new clothes"?

Well old chaps it is time for a spot of tea. Merry Christmas and all that...

Well said! at least a few people here get it!

Merry Christmas all!

[BoostedNihilist]

Being that I am supporting an established term, I am wondering exactly what qualifications you (the group of you who don't like the term) have to say otherwise? Are you university level linguists? Or lawyers (who are paid to argue semantics)? I doubt it.

Can someone explain to me where AD's come from?

[quote]we need more AMEs like you that use your head when working[/quote]

Hmm, use their head for what exactly?

I look at it like this, you have these pieces of machinery, someone sits and designs them, gets them through all the certification bullshit, then releases this object out to the public. The job is only half done though, because with any product comes field observation. This is where the maintenence engineer comes in. They are trained to maintain an aircraft and make observations and log them, this to me sounds just like something that is known as scientific method. An engineer might see one aircraft, and notice some stress cracks or some other erroneous looking defect and either do something about it based on one instance, which if you know an engineer he will tell you this will not happen, or he can look at the data collected by his piers and notice a trend. Now, if an ame was just above a monkey as some of you contend, how could he be qualified to make observations, log them and potentially contribute to an AD.

Engineers, and aircraft maint. engineers are partners, without AME input, designers would not be able to engineer anything, as their data would be based on nothing but math figures and regulations... without the supplementary input from AME's we would still be flying tiger moths and sopwiths, not that that would be a bad thing, and there would never be any innovation.

Now, if you really want to see about an AME doing some aircraft related engineering I suggest you check out this site.

http://www.thatchercx4.com/about_us.htm

This guy designed, engineered, tested and ultimately flew his own aircraft. (BTW, isn't this thing sweet, say hello to my next project)

Anyways, there you go... it would appear that even someone who is not an engineer can engineer an aircraft.

[Cat Driver]

Boosted:

I have talked to Mr. Thatcher and he is a truly interesting person who had a dream and made into reality.

God Damn it if I were just starting flying that would be my choice of airplane to build time on, if a guy or the gal does not want to build their own they can buy one someone else built.

When you are finished building time on it sell it to another pilot wanting to build time...remember when building time it is hours that count.

[twnotter]

What a stupid topic...........Doesn't anyone have better things to do during the holidays than reply to such a stupid topic.....go play in the traffic instead or get drunk!!!

my 2 cents

[CID]

Can an engineer be an ame?

Why not? If he has the qualification then yes.

The very fact that you disassociate the engineer from the AME in this example shows the fatal flaw in your logic.

Yes, an engineer can become an AME if he/she receives the training and licensing. Ergo, an AME can become an "engineer" (out of the context of the controversial "maintenance engineer" term that TCCA preserves) if he/she receives the prescribed education and a degree.

[BoostedNihilist]

there is no fatal flaw in the logic at all, if anything it goes to illustrate the point that the term engineer has more than one accepted application.

engineers of all types have to be certified in their field. I took your general term 'engineer' to be a civil, electrical or mechanical engineer, or pretty much any other type of engineer other than an AME, and I stated that if any of those other engineers wanted to work on aircraft they would have to get an aircrat maint engineering ticket, just as an AME would have to get a ticket to do the duties of a civil, electrical, or mechanical engineer.

I'm not saying an engineer can not be capable of doing the tasks of an ame, just that he is not certified to be an engineer in terms of the the aircraft maint. definition of the word, just as an ame is not certified to be an engineer in the civil, mechanical, electrical or whatever engineer realted term you can find... These are all completely sepearte fields of engineering... just as maint engineering is specific to maint engineering, so is civil engineering to civil and mechanical blah blah blah.

Boosted

[Strega]

there is no fatal flaw in the logic at all, if anything it goes to illustrate the point that the term engineer has more than one accepted application.

engineers of all types have to be certified in their field. I took your general term 'engineer' to be a civil, electrical or mechanical engineer, or pretty much any other type of engineer other than an AME, and I stated that if any of those other engineers wanted to work on aircraft they would have to get an aircrat maint engineering ticket, just as an AME would have to get a ticket to do the duties of a civil, electrical, or mechanical engineer.

I'm not saying an engineer can not be capable of doing the tasks of an ame, just that he is not certified to be an engineer in terms of the the aircraft maint. definition of the word, just as an ame is not certified to be an engineer in the civil, mechanical, electrical or whatever engineer realted term you can find... These are all completely sepearte fields of engineering... just as maint engineering is specific to maint engineering, so is civil engineering to civil and mechanical blah blah blah.

Boosted

You cannot compare "maint engineering" to civil or mechanical engineering.
If you can't see this. well perhaps head back to school.
By the way I am a licensed engineer in Alberta, and am just shy of my TCCA AME M1 license.

*note I said license,, a "ticket" is what you need to go to a hockey game*

[BoostedNihilist]

I am not an AME or an engineer so I am really in no position to comment on the issue one way or the other.

This is a futile battle over semantics and everyone is right.

Anyways, really, check out the CX4 that Dave Thatcher designed, wicked little aircraft. Rv3ish with a more stylin wing, that cockpit looks sweet!

The pictures of the 5.8 g load test are really cool.


And now, in the avcanada way, I will now redirect the thread onto another unrelated topic

Can you build time in an experimental (or 'home built') aircraft?

[CID]

I took your general term 'engineer' to be a civil, electrical or mechanical engineer, or pretty much any other type of engineer other than an AME

So does everyone else who understands what an engineer is. Isn't that the point?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Can you build time in an experimental (or 'home built') aircraft?

Register it under amateur built with a CF xxx or CG xxx registration and it is as loggable as a Cessna 172...only more fun.

[dashguy]

Wow if the rest of us AME's put as much effort into fighting for better wages as you guys put into bickering over wether we are engineers I can't imagine where the pay scales would look like.

Personally I think both sides of this argument are right it just depends if you can understand that Aircraft Maintenace Engineer is an antiquated term.

[tellyourkidstogetarealjob]

You can call me any damned thing you want, as long as you don't call me for $24 an hour.

[Akira]

is a dentist really a doctor???

[Ballsssssss]

I wonder why no one on this thread had mentioned the fact that an AME has to sign a maintenance release certifying the work that has been accomplished. The big deal about being a P.Eng is having that stamp to approve drawings/designs etc. Technologists usually design and blue-print the designs IAW approved specifications and manuals, depending on the industry/work environment. I agree the term "Engineer" is used loosely in regards to we Aircraft Maintenance Engineers, but you cannot simply call us Aircraft Mechanics (Well you can, but I will throw a wrench at your head). Yes, we do a lot of mechanic work, but we also act as mentors, trainers and supervisors (in terms of apprentices) and inspectors (in terms of paperwork, CAR's, AD's SB's). We are legally liable for the work that we sign out and that, Gentlemen, is the rub. Accepting the responsibility of that signature is what raises our designation to somewhere between Tradesman and Professional.

[CID]

is a dentist really a doctor???

Um...yes.