Perimeter
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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Fresh Prince of King Air
- Rank 3
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 11:02 am
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samsquatch
- Rank 0
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- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:49 pm
Re: Perimeter
Hey WTF, why do you start these bs posts about perimeter? You get rejected by them? I for one certainly hope so.
Re: Perimeter
no B.S. guy doing his line in-doc.
Hell of a line in-doc
hope someone from maintance got a punch in the head over the incident
Hell of a line in-doc
hope someone from maintance got a punch in the head over the incident
Re: Perimeter
News Flash....They are machines, even the best maintained machines in the world break! I don't think it fair to point a finger at an AME right out of the gate. Contrary to popular belief lightning does strike twice in the same place so why not three times. If three in one day is a fact thats a bitch...but were they failures? I highly doubt they had 3 failures. A failure and 2 precautionary shutdowns....may 3 precautionarys? With all the movement thats happening at that level of carrier experience levels are dropping fast as well...any chance of early shutdowns? Theres a number of saying that come into play in those circumstances...when in doubt chicken out...no harm, no foul.
Re: Perimeter
Really. How many times do you shut down a engine before it's acceptable to punch the AME in the head?I don't think it fair to point a finger at an AME right out of the gate.
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Chuck Ellsworth
- Rank 11
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- Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
- Location: Always moving
Re: Perimeter
I thought AME's fix them after pilots break them??Really. How many times do you shut down a engine before it's acceptable to punch the AME in the head?
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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ScudRunner
- Rank 11
- Posts: 3239
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:58 am
Re: Perimeter
CADORS Number: 2008C0078 Reporting Region: Prairie & Northern
Occurrence InformationOccurrence Type: Incident Occurrence Date: 2008/01/08
Occurrence Time: 1546 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 0 Injuries:
Canadian Aerodrome ID: CYIV Aerodrome Name: Island Lake
Occurrence Location: Island Lake (CYIV) Province: Manitoba
Country: CANADA World Area: North America
Reported By: NAV CANADA AOR Number: 89127-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation: 5 TSB Occurrence No.: A08C0002
Event InformationDeclared emergency/priority
Diversion
Engine malfunction - other
Engine shut down
Aircraft InformationFlight #: PAG 140
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: SWEARINGEN Model: SA226TC
Year Built: 1978 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: GARRETT Engine Model: TPE331-10UA-511G
Engine Type: Turbo prop Gear Type: Land
Phase of Flight: Cruise Damage: No Damage
Owner: PERIMETER AVIATION LTD. Operator: PERIMETER AVIATION LTD. (1861)
Operator Type: Commercial
Detail InformationUser Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2008/01/08
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: Maintenance & Manufacturing
Narrative: PAG 140, a Metro II, had departed Island Lake for Winnipeg and a short time later, the crew declared an emergency when the left engine flamed out as the aircraft climbed through 12,000 feet. They returned to YIV and the aircraft landed safely at 1557z. The engine was successfully re-started on the ground at YIV and a ferry permit has been issued in order for the aircraft to be returned to base in YWG for further troubleshooting. TSB reported that Perimeter Aviation PAG 140, a Fairchild SA-226-TC aircraft, departed Island Lake, Manitoba. While climbing through 12,000 feet, the left engine (Honeywell TPE331) lost all power. The crew declared an emergency and returned to Island Lake where the aircraft landed safely. The operator is currently trouble-shooting the engine and will advise of its findings.
User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2008/01/09
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE This aircraft was involved in two more emergencies later same day due to the same engine problem. The first happened when the aircraft was being ferried back to Winnipeg and the crew returned to Island Lake and the second happened about 20 minutes north of YWG on the second ferry flight, when the engine failed again. Maintenance and Manufacturing reported that company maintenance was dispatched to YIV where the aircraft was inspected. Maintenance replaced the LH engine stop switch and performed engine performance runs with no faults. Maintenance released the aircraft safe for the intended flight using the flight permit issued. The aircraft departed YIV and through 7,000 feet, the LH engine flamed out once again. The flight crew secured the engine and once again returned to island lake and landed uneventfully on one engine. Due to the intermittent nature of the failure and inability to duplicate on the ground, the flight permit contained operational procedures to prevent the engine from flameout in the event the stop switch did not rectify the defect. The following operational procedures were indicated on the flight permit: - The LH engine #2 start control relay circuit breaker was to be pulled after engine start to prevent inadvertent electrical signals to the LH engine fuel shutoff to command it to close. - The LH and RH engine intake heat was to remain on for takeoff and the duration of flight. - The LH engine ignition was to be selected to "continuous". Due to the uncertainty of the cause of the defect, the purpose of these procedures was to eliminate the engine fuel shutoff as a possible cause of the flameout in the event it was to reoccur. A mechanical emergency fuel cut-off was still available to the crew in the event of an emergency. It was determined during the second flight the flight crew inadvertently missed performing one of the operational procedures stated on the flight permit. (The #2 start control relay circuit breaker was not pulled) which may have allowed a uncommanded electrical signal to go to the engine fuel shutoff valve. this then prompted maintenance to be dispatched to the aircraft again to replace the LH engine fuel shutoff valve. Ground runs were performed and the aircraft again certified safe for the intended flight with respect to the flight permit issued. The aircraft departed YIV for YWG. After approximately one hour of flight and shortly before landing in YWG, the LH engine flamed out for third time. The aircraft landed safely. Maintenance continues to troubleshoot the aircraft to rectify the problem in YWG. An update will follow on developments and satisfactory rectification. SDR's will be submitted for defective parts or components.
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CADORS Number: 2008C0079 Reporting Region: Prairie & Northern
Occurrence InformationOccurrence Type: Incident Occurrence Date: 2008/01/08
Occurrence Time: 1610 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 0 Injuries:
Canadian Aerodrome ID: CYWG Aerodrome Name: Winnipeg Intl
Occurrence Location: Winnipeg Intl (CYWG) Province: Manitoba
Country: CANADA World Area: North America
Reported By: NAV CANADA AOR Number: 89126-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation: TSB Occurrence No.:
Event InformationDiversion
Flight instrument failure
Aircraft InformationFlight #: PAG 207
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: SWEARINGEN Model: SA226TC
Year Built: 1980 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: GARRETT Engine Model: TPE331-10UA
Engine Type: Turbo prop Gear Type: Land
Phase of Flight: Climb Damage: No Damage
Owner: PERIMETER AVIATION LTD. Operator: PERIMETER AVIATION LTD. (1861)
Operator Type: Commercial
Detail InformationUser Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2008/01/08
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: Maintenance & Manufacturing
Narrative: PAG 207, a Metro, departed Winnipeg and shortly after takeoff, the crew reported an unspecified equipment indication and advised they would be returning. They indicated no AFF was required and the aircraft landed without incident or impact on operations at 1620z.
User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2008/01/09
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE Maintenance and Manufacturing advised that the RH oil temperature gauge was fluctuating rapidly. Flight crew elected to return due to the indication. No other abnormalities were noticed. Maintenance replaced the indicator with no further problems
Occurrence InformationOccurrence Type: Incident Occurrence Date: 2008/01/08
Occurrence Time: 1546 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 0 Injuries:
Canadian Aerodrome ID: CYIV Aerodrome Name: Island Lake
Occurrence Location: Island Lake (CYIV) Province: Manitoba
Country: CANADA World Area: North America
Reported By: NAV CANADA AOR Number: 89127-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation: 5 TSB Occurrence No.: A08C0002
Event InformationDeclared emergency/priority
Diversion
Engine malfunction - other
Engine shut down
Aircraft InformationFlight #: PAG 140
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: SWEARINGEN Model: SA226TC
Year Built: 1978 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: GARRETT Engine Model: TPE331-10UA-511G
Engine Type: Turbo prop Gear Type: Land
Phase of Flight: Cruise Damage: No Damage
Owner: PERIMETER AVIATION LTD. Operator: PERIMETER AVIATION LTD. (1861)
Operator Type: Commercial
Detail InformationUser Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2008/01/08
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: Maintenance & Manufacturing
Narrative: PAG 140, a Metro II, had departed Island Lake for Winnipeg and a short time later, the crew declared an emergency when the left engine flamed out as the aircraft climbed through 12,000 feet. They returned to YIV and the aircraft landed safely at 1557z. The engine was successfully re-started on the ground at YIV and a ferry permit has been issued in order for the aircraft to be returned to base in YWG for further troubleshooting. TSB reported that Perimeter Aviation PAG 140, a Fairchild SA-226-TC aircraft, departed Island Lake, Manitoba. While climbing through 12,000 feet, the left engine (Honeywell TPE331) lost all power. The crew declared an emergency and returned to Island Lake where the aircraft landed safely. The operator is currently trouble-shooting the engine and will advise of its findings.
User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2008/01/09
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE This aircraft was involved in two more emergencies later same day due to the same engine problem. The first happened when the aircraft was being ferried back to Winnipeg and the crew returned to Island Lake and the second happened about 20 minutes north of YWG on the second ferry flight, when the engine failed again. Maintenance and Manufacturing reported that company maintenance was dispatched to YIV where the aircraft was inspected. Maintenance replaced the LH engine stop switch and performed engine performance runs with no faults. Maintenance released the aircraft safe for the intended flight using the flight permit issued. The aircraft departed YIV and through 7,000 feet, the LH engine flamed out once again. The flight crew secured the engine and once again returned to island lake and landed uneventfully on one engine. Due to the intermittent nature of the failure and inability to duplicate on the ground, the flight permit contained operational procedures to prevent the engine from flameout in the event the stop switch did not rectify the defect. The following operational procedures were indicated on the flight permit: - The LH engine #2 start control relay circuit breaker was to be pulled after engine start to prevent inadvertent electrical signals to the LH engine fuel shutoff to command it to close. - The LH and RH engine intake heat was to remain on for takeoff and the duration of flight. - The LH engine ignition was to be selected to "continuous". Due to the uncertainty of the cause of the defect, the purpose of these procedures was to eliminate the engine fuel shutoff as a possible cause of the flameout in the event it was to reoccur. A mechanical emergency fuel cut-off was still available to the crew in the event of an emergency. It was determined during the second flight the flight crew inadvertently missed performing one of the operational procedures stated on the flight permit. (The #2 start control relay circuit breaker was not pulled) which may have allowed a uncommanded electrical signal to go to the engine fuel shutoff valve. this then prompted maintenance to be dispatched to the aircraft again to replace the LH engine fuel shutoff valve. Ground runs were performed and the aircraft again certified safe for the intended flight with respect to the flight permit issued. The aircraft departed YIV for YWG. After approximately one hour of flight and shortly before landing in YWG, the LH engine flamed out for third time. The aircraft landed safely. Maintenance continues to troubleshoot the aircraft to rectify the problem in YWG. An update will follow on developments and satisfactory rectification. SDR's will be submitted for defective parts or components.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CADORS Number: 2008C0079 Reporting Region: Prairie & Northern
Occurrence InformationOccurrence Type: Incident Occurrence Date: 2008/01/08
Occurrence Time: 1610 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 0 Injuries:
Canadian Aerodrome ID: CYWG Aerodrome Name: Winnipeg Intl
Occurrence Location: Winnipeg Intl (CYWG) Province: Manitoba
Country: CANADA World Area: North America
Reported By: NAV CANADA AOR Number: 89126-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation: TSB Occurrence No.:
Event InformationDiversion
Flight instrument failure
Aircraft InformationFlight #: PAG 207
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: SWEARINGEN Model: SA226TC
Year Built: 1980 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: GARRETT Engine Model: TPE331-10UA
Engine Type: Turbo prop Gear Type: Land
Phase of Flight: Climb Damage: No Damage
Owner: PERIMETER AVIATION LTD. Operator: PERIMETER AVIATION LTD. (1861)
Operator Type: Commercial
Detail InformationUser Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2008/01/08
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: Maintenance & Manufacturing
Narrative: PAG 207, a Metro, departed Winnipeg and shortly after takeoff, the crew reported an unspecified equipment indication and advised they would be returning. They indicated no AFF was required and the aircraft landed without incident or impact on operations at 1620z.
User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2008/01/09
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE Maintenance and Manufacturing advised that the RH oil temperature gauge was fluctuating rapidly. Flight crew elected to return due to the indication. No other abnormalities were noticed. Maintenance replaced the indicator with no further problems
Re: Perimeter
Or why don't we ask .. how long do we wait to punch a pilot in the head .. is it after asking the first stupid question or the last . How about we punch them every time they snag something stupid. Or maybe we wait till they prang up the machine that we spend all night (or day) inspecting and maintaining . Just a thought ... . wrote:Really. How many times do you shut down a engine before it's acceptable to punch the AME in the head?
Re: Perimeter
I knew you wern't talking about the green machine when you started your statment with that.I thought AME's fix them
Re: Perimeter
Well there you go....lightning strikes 3 times in same place! Hats off to the crew, other than the little glitch with the ferry permit procedure (which seems to be unrelated) nice work. Hell of a day, flying along wondering when you are going to run the drills again. Still wouldn't punch the AME though, you do what you can with the information available at the time....ground tested serviceable. I'm sure they did everything reasonable and were confident after the ground runs that the problem was rectified.
Crystal balls aren't part of the tool box, besides Transport would never approve them for use in Canada.
Crystal balls aren't part of the tool box, besides Transport would never approve them for use in Canada.
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Chuck Ellsworth
- Rank 11
- Posts: 3074
- Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
- Location: Always moving
Re: Perimeter
Beech99, I was quoting the other poster.....
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Perimeter
Sorry my bad. . wrote:Beech99, I was quoting the other poster.....
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Chuck Ellsworth
- Rank 11
- Posts: 3074
- Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
- Location: Always moving
Re: Perimeter
We could get rich if we collectively wrote a book called.. How about we punch them every time they snag something stupid.
" Snags I have seen written by pilots."
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Perimeter
Maybe we should just punch everyone who royally screws up...Beech99 wrote:Or why don't we ask .. how long do we wait to punch a pilot in the head .. is it after asking the first stupid question or the last . How about we punch them every time they snag something stupid. Or maybe we wait till they prang up the machine that we spend all night (or day) inspecting and maintaining . Just a thought ... . wrote:Really. How many times do you shut down a engine before it's acceptable to punch the AME in the head?
I know I'd have a shiner or 3.But seriously, if there were 3 non related engine failures in the same week, let alone same day, I would as MGMT be asking some hard questions.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
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Captain Crunch
- Rank 3
- Posts: 147
- Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:52 pm
- Location: Somewhere you can't afford!
Re: Perimeter
We here at Perimeter get bored easily with the same mundane routine, AR7 16,000 and back. The three engine failure were planned to spice up the day, and start getting some bang for out buck with the line in doc. Lets face it, any jackass can fly a metro around all day with two engines running, but two single engine northern landings, and a night time single engine landing in YWG makes the day go by faster, even when you sit around up north all day waiting for mtce to fix your plane.
We have also started to practice holding the mains off, as opposed to holding the nose off - real hands and feet are required for that one!
CC
We have also started to practice holding the mains off, as opposed to holding the nose off - real hands and feet are required for that one!
CC
Re: Perimeter
have they figured out the problem yet? is the plane flying again?
Re: Perimeter
Such hate for Perimeter...jeez, guys, it really isn't that terrible of a place to work (IMO)...
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linecrew
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1900
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:53 am
- Location: On final so get off the damn runway!
Re: Perimeter
cywg_sw4 wrote:Such hate for Perimeter...jeez, guys, it really isn't that terrible of a place to work (IMO)...
...esp for those that migrated over after the demise of Skyward...
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'effin hippie
- Rank 5
- Posts: 308
- Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:44 pm
- Location: Further..further...ok, too far...
Re: Perimeter
wtf - WTF?
Man take a load off. It seems sometimes like you actually want to engage in real dialogue on here instead of just getting your rocks off or trolling, otherwise I wouldn't take the bait.
You're coming in stupid tho... people aren't sharing your righteous indignation, they think you're an idiot. Try toning it down a bit.
ef
Man take a load off. It seems sometimes like you actually want to engage in real dialogue on here instead of just getting your rocks off or trolling, otherwise I wouldn't take the bait.
You're coming in stupid tho... people aren't sharing your righteous indignation, they think you're an idiot. Try toning it down a bit.
ef
