Buying AvGas

[na94]

I'm a non-pilot looking to buy avgas in Vancouver for my race car. It's a heck of a lot more stable than real race gas, and the lead is easier on older engines.

I have been told that this stuff is no longer available to people without a pilot's license. Is this true? If this is the case, is there a round about way I can buy some? I only need about 10 gallons max for the season.

PM me if you have any info.

Thanks,
Mike

[brownbear]

you will not be able to buy it from the dealer. They are forbidden.

I would go to a place with small planes(bring gerry cans) and talk to a few small airplane owners or maybe the maintenance shops.

It's not unusual for a small plane to take jerry cans on their flight with them, so they can get them filled up at the same time, then maybe strike a deal with you.

It is illegal to use it on the road. But for a race car on the track I see no ethical/or other reasons why you could not buy it.

It's bloody expensive though. I bet it is over 1.50 at most places. Some of them 1.60 plus. So you really need to figure out if that's what you want.

Ten Gallons for a season isn't much hassle, but many pilots would not want to do it often for ya.

I suggest you offer the price of the fuel plus some beer to the pilot, bring the beer with you. A 6 or 12 pack might make him feel better.

[Hornblower]

At my home airport they'd sell gas to a raving jihadist with a plane load of dynamite, ... as long as he paid cash.

[HuD 91gt]

Try a small airfield with private operators. Don't try to go to an Esso/Shell.

I'm guessing you need this because of the new ban of C16 on the racetrack?

[na94]

Actually, the car I purchased had the engine dyno-tuned for a mix of 50/50 avgas and 94 pump. I could run c12, but I'd rather run the avgas if I could get away with it. It's actually cheaper than race gas, and more stable, so I don't have to pump out my fuel cell every weekend.

Turns out there's a bush pilot that owes me a favor, but if he can't do anything, I'll poke around one of the small airports where the private planes fly out of.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Hornblower, where is *your* airport???

[Lommer]

Bah, I worked at an FBO for 2 years and didn't know it was illegal. I never sold any to car owners but if someone had walked in with a Jerry can and asked for some I would have sold it without a second thought. This was at a shell by the way. I'd try just walking into an FBO with jerry cans and asking to buy the avgas, don't even bother mentioning the car thing unless they ask. One or two might turn you down but my guess is you'd find one soon enough that either (a) wouldn't even ask what it was for or more likely (b) wouldn't care.

[sissyphus]

Remember to get a metal tank to cart it away with. Its illegal to put it in the plastic highly static cans. Tell em its for your home built, engine test, whatever. I'd stop by a small airport on a weekend, catch a weekend rampie on a coffee break. I'd sell it to ya if I could. Regulations taking all the fun out of life

[skycoupe]

"Remember to get a metal tank to cart it away with. Its illegal to put it in the plastic highly static cans."

Are you sure?
We have been using plastic for decades.
Have had numerous ramp/dock checks .. and no mention of it.

Wedco CSA approved 23 litre cans.

Just don't want na94 to buy new cans if he doesn't have to.

[Team Firecracker]

plastic is fine as long as it's HDPE(high density poly ethelene?). all those red jerry's are HDPE. The reason the brand name fuel companies wont sell it is due to tax laws. Kinda like buying marked gas.

[Sub-Space Canoodler]

The lead content is what is illegal also. Even though 100LL is low lead, it still has too much lead in it for automotive use according to the government. Road taxes are another issue....

[wtf_over]

WTF

The reason the brand name fuel companies wont sell it is due to tax laws.

it's all about liability. anyone who tells you it's not is dumb. when a plane crashes who do you think the first person TSB talks to.

I'll give you a hint (keystone has a reputation for not enough of this in their tanks)

That's right the person who filled the gas tanks

Now when they fill a plane they know what it's going to be used for and how much was put in. When they fill a jerry can, not so much

[Team Firecracker]

Actually, I've been the last person to fuel at least 5 aircraft before they went down. Some of the those had fatal results. Every time I've taken a sample of fuel and filled out the required internal reports. Not once was I called by TSB or TC. As for the liability comment, You're bang on there, the big 2 are always monitoring risk vs. reward. Thats why avgas will probably vanish within a decade. FSII will probably vanish within this year as the fuel companies consider thier additive injecters a liability. Better stock up on cans of PRIST for those PC-12's.

PS. The first 2 sentences are not something I'm proud of, nor do I believe I or the fuel I delivered was a cause for these accidents/incidents.

[CYQMer]

Dear Team Firecracker,

Please fill in the blanks:

My name is 1.________________
I work for 2._____________ at 3._______________ airport.

Note to self:

Do not buy AVGAS from 1.________________ at 2._______________ in 3.________________

Actually, I've been the last person to fuel at least 5 aircraft before they went down. Some of the those had fatal results. Every time I've taken a sample of fuel and filled out the required internal reports. Not once was I called by TSB or TC. As for the liability comment, You're bang on there, the big 2 are always monitoring risk vs. reward. Thats why avgas will probably vanish within a decade. FSII will probably vanish within this year as the fuel companies consider thier additive injecters a liability. Better stock up on cans of PRIST for those PC-12's.

PS. The first 2 sentences are not something I'm proud of, nor do I believe I or the fuel I delivered was a cause for these accidents/incidents.

[FlyingFinn]

Just go to any "bulk plant" or bulk supplier and ask to purchase it in 45Gal Drums. It's usually more expensive this way and you have to pay the $50 deposit on each drum. But they wont ask for a licence or anything to hassle you and if they do ask tell them you have a small Piper Cub or something at your own private field! Any Shell, Esso or Air BP plant will do that easily. Just dont go to the airport and start asking at a Shell or Esso, since most are only able to sell Airside!

[Dust Devil]

I had no idea avgas was such a controlled commodity. Is it this hard for other people to get a jerry can of jet too? I've never had a problem

[Benwa]

Seriously ??? I use to ride my motorcycle up to the tanks... and that was POST 9/11.

Can't believe the paranoia

[Lommer]

Just dont go to the airport and start asking at a Shell or Esso, since most are only able to sell Airside!

No, do exactly that! Even if you're only able to sell airside, just bring the jerry can airside and then fill it up. Seriously, just start asking any place that sells it and go by a don't ask don't tell policy. As long as you don't start the conversation with "I want to buy some avgas but I heard that it's illegal for you to sell it to me" then you'll find a willing vendor sooner or later.

[Justwannafly]

Dear Team Firecracker,

Please fill in the blanks:

My name is 1.________________
I work for 2._____________ at 3._______________ airport.

Note to self:

Do not buy AVGAS from 1.________________ at 2._______________ in 3.________________

Actually, I've been the last person to fuel at least 5 aircraft before they went down. Some of the those had fatal results. Every time I've taken a sample of fuel and filled out the required internal reports. Not once was I called by TSB or TC. As for the liability comment, You're bang on there, the big 2 are always monitoring risk vs. reward. Thats why avgas will probably vanish within a decade. FSII will probably vanish within this year as the fuel companies consider thier additive injecters a liability. Better stock up on cans of PRIST for those PC-12's.

PS. The first 2 sentences are not something I'm proud of, nor do I believe I or the fuel I delivered was a cause for these accidents/incidents.

FRICK!!! I'm not buying from you either!!!

[wanderer]

I used to work for an Avitat.

We were not able to sell any fuel except for into aircraft. No jerry cans to anyone even aviators who we honestly believed were going to use it in aircraft.

It was all about quality control and liability. The company could not directly control quality of the fuel if it did not go from our truck into the airplane and the lawyers could not deal with the idea that Imperial Oil fuel may come into question in the event of a crash if we did not actually put it into the plane.

There was no consideration that someone might be purchasing for non aviation related purposes. There were no waivers to sign. It was black and white. Into the airplane or not at all.

[Rowdy]

Wanderer.. that was the big issue at the spot I worked.

We were told NO jerry cans, NO drums that did not come straight from esso and DEFINATLY no cars..

However.. it's not too hard to have someone fill the tank of their plane.. then when the fuel man buggers off.. just run the fuel sampler drain into a jerry can. I'm pretty sure most private guys would be more than happy to help you out.


Do not go to boundary bay for fuel. Try delta airpark, ft. langley, maybe chilliwack and or pitt meadows.

[Lommer]

I worked for a non-esso outfit, and our restrictions were nothing like that. We'd fuel tanks and drums on a regular basis, I've topped up ramp vehicles with avgas, and we'd even refuel our own trucks with Jet-A if the tank was running low. Basically as long as the customer was willing to sign (and pay for) for what they wanted and that the fuel was properly delivered, they got it however they liked. I do remember esso having no end of auditing and quality control BS so maybe they just have tougher rules. In that case I'll revise my previous statements: try an FBO other than esso.

[MrWings]

I worked for a non-esso outfit, and our restrictions were nothing like that. We'd fuel tanks and drums on a regular basis, I've topped up ramp vehicles with avgas, and we'd even refuel our own trucks with Jet-A if the tank was running low. Basically as long as the customer was willing to sign (and pay for) for what they wanted and that the fuel was properly delivered, they got it however they liked. I do remember esso having no end of auditing and quality control BS so maybe they just have tougher rules. In that case I'll revise my previous statements: try an FBO other than esso.

Esso, Shell and other reputable dealers don't have tougher rules. They are just follwing the law. It is illegal in Canada to use lead in vehicles.

Is quality control BS when my engine quits at 700' because of water in the fuel that you didn't bother to check? As a pilot, my life is worth the few cents more and I will stick with the major brands BECAUSE of their rigorous scrutiny. You pay for what you get.

[billekens]

non carborundum illegitemi est

signature from skycoupe.

I tried and came up with a freely translated expression: "don't carborundum bastard down" or do not "grind" the bastard down?
Good play with words.

[RatherBeFlying]

Back in '76 I bought a Renault 5, drove it away, read the owner's manual and found I had to use premium fuel (the highly leaded stuff). A year or two later, unleaded came out and guess which gas was taken off the market. Premium unleaded knocked like crazy; so, turned to avgas and an Explosafe gas can. Would fill up with avgas and fill the can. If out of gas away from an airport, pour in the avgas, fill up with unleaded and the car was unhappy.

On long trips, planned ahead for airports. After some years the YSM line boy had to turn me down.

Once was caught out in the boonies, so, tried leaded regular and the car was perfectly happy.

The little out of the way airports or private strips are the way to go, especially if you know somebody.

The Explosafe tanks were an excellent product; sadly the market was not interested and they could not sell enough to stay in business.

[Strega]

I worked for a non-esso outfit, and our restrictions were nothing like that. We'd fuel tanks and drums on a regular basis, I've topped up ramp vehicles with avgas, and we'd even refuel our own trucks with Jet-A if the tank was running low. Basically as long as the customer was willing to sign (and pay for) for what they wanted and that the fuel was properly delivered, they got it however they liked. I do remember esso having no end of auditing and quality control BS so maybe they just have tougher rules. In that case I'll revise my previous statements: try an FBO other than esso.

Esso, Shell and other reputable dealers don't have tougher rules. They are just follwing the law. It is illegal in Canada to use lead in vehicles.

Is quality control BS when my engine quits at 700' because of water in the fuel that you didn't bother to check? As a pilot, my life is worth the few cents more and I will stick with the major brands BECAUSE of their rigorous scrutiny. You pay for what you get.

Not true.