Lying about time

[LG1]

Why do so many pilots lie about how much time they have? Don't people realize how obvious it is to the people that fly with them on a regular basis?

[Stinky]

It's no different than lying about how well endowed you are or how much money you have, it's human nature.
I'm actually an authority on this type of thing, I've seen a lot of it during my time on wall street, my short stint as a porn star and even while on space shuttle missions.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people lie.

[Buzz Lightyear]

I'm sure many guys did it to benefit from the current recruitment wave (doesn't take a lot for Jazz right now) and it makes me sick to think that I have to wait patiently cause I'm being too damn honest. I sure hope the majority of us don't lie about their time but as we all know sometimes human nature overules good judgement...

[hawker driver]

I've seen a lot of it during my time on wall street, my short stint as a porn star and even while on space shuttle missions.

Stinky,
Thanks for filling in for me on that last movie, I am not really into the guy thing.

[1000 HP]

I've never lied about anything...

[seniorpumpkin]

I think the big thing the "liars" are failing to realize is the insurance aspect of things.
Imagine something terrible happens, a crash for example. Insurance is going to try to find any way they can to avoid paying. The pilot's hours are going to be scrutinized. If there are noticeable discrepancies, they will be f*^ked.
I tried driving my car in BC with sk plates for 4 months. month 3 I was involved in a fender bender. Even though I was insured by SGI, they said Too bad, technically you now live in BC, you're not insured It ended up costing me $3500 to fix my car. I figure I got lucky, I learned a valuable lesson about insurance and it could have been so much worse! Those f*^kers who lie about their time, may not learn that lesson the easy way.
Remember all those float guys who got busted for the fake solo time on their float ratings? I don't know if that was motivated by insurance, but it's a classic example of the kind of thing that can happen.
So fly safe all you liars, because that's only one of the many ways you can get screwed by committing fraud.

[sky's the limit]

It's recurrent training season in the heli world now, and we were having a similar conversation yesterday about this. Agencies like BCFS require very detailed listings of your time, what applications you've done, and for how many hours on each of those. There's not one of us who've kept a log that accurate, and many of us don't log at all anymore. How am I supposed to know how many hours I've long lined, bucketed water, hover exited etc? So, it begs the question posted above - If I have an accident, and they investigate my hours, will they fill out my logbook for me?

On a serious note, I can tell you to within a few hundred hours of my time(I think), but I don't know exactly, and I certainly can't tell you how many hours I've spent on specific tasks, so how will that go over in an accident investigation? Two guys in my company don't even own logbooks, at least I have one on the shelf.... Somewhere.


stl

[Cat Driver]

On a serious note, I can tell you to within a few hundred hours of my time(I think), but I don't know exactly, and I certainly can't tell you how many hours I've spent on specific tasks, so how will that go over in an accident investigation? Two guys in my company don't even own logbooks, at least I have one on the shelf.... Somewhere.

I can't remember the last time I had or kept a personal log book.

The strange thing though is no one ever asks me for one so I'm just gonna not worry to much about not keeping one.

Logged hours in a personal log book is a very poor measure of a pilots ability or worth.

[seniorpumpkin]

I think that mostly depends on how you fill out the insurance form that asks how many hours you have. The insurance claim will be based on the premise that you had _______ # of hours at the time of the crash. If it is discovered that you actually only had __ # of hours then insurance can say, you weren't qualified, or you didn't meet the requirements therefore your insurance is void.
I don't mean to imply that you old guys who have given up on log books will get busted because you only have 5100 hours instead of 5300, when the requirements for insurance is 1000. I think my theoretical example is more applicable in the case of the lower time pilot who says they have 1010.3 hrs of pic time when really they only have 950.4 and the insurance requirement is 1000.

[sky's the limit]

I don't mean to imply that you old guys

OK, now I'm offended.... I'm not old.... Grumpy maybe, old - not yet!

Cat,

I keep track via pay stubs these days.... That's about it. The last pen entry in my book is from 2002, just looked at it. Nobody ever seems to ask me either, and as you well know, in the helicopter world it'll be obvious in about 10mins if you're full of shit or not.

stl

[Liquid Charlie]

Most people who "pad" and lie in their log books get caught out -- they never seem to be able to "walk the walk" - I have known several cases and even an infamous one at AC -- all busted when it came to simulator or flight training. These were the extreme cases where people claimed to be pilots instead of S/O's -- claiming to have time on an airplane and never been even inside -- padding a few hours to meet min requirements will only be picked up if confirmation of time is required but the "big" lie always gets you.

[MrWings]

The next sentence is false. The previous sentence is true. Am I a liar?



I had a old time instructor tell me about one of the first jobs he got. The company asked if he had 50-100 hours on type. He said yes.

Before moving up north he went and found a 185 and put some hours on it to be competent. Maybe 5-10.

No one knew the better.

[Cat Driver]

No one knew the better.

But he is still a dishonest untrustworthy individual.

If you will lie about small things how about the big things.

[seniorpumpkin]

Sorry sky's the limit, my bad. I assumed that since you seem to have it all figured out, you would have to be old!

[MichaelP]

Lying works, it really does even if you are caught!

Pich fell out with his girlfriend... Unfortunately he'd been honest with her... How many people are really honest with their other halves?
He went through the TG course to fly the 747... His girlfriend shopped him after they broke up, he lost his job with TG, and the Thai DCA looked badly upon pilots from the Canadian system; he'd shamed us all.

The last I heard was that Pich got a job in the middle east flying 747s, well he'd done the course even if he'd lied about his hours!

I hear lies, lots of lies... I read lies, lot's of lies...
I look at the logbook, the total time is 200 hours, nearly all in Cherokees, but two entries were as PIC in a Harvard. How does a PPL with all his time in a Cherrytree log Pilot In Command in a T6?
I check him out in the T67A... I know the type, I gave him dire warnings about trying aerobatics in this aircraft, suggested he get someone with experience to fly with him and make sure he has lots of height!
Sure enough, you know the type, a month later he smacked into the ground doing low level aerobatics in Sweden, and he died.
They sent my towbar back to me, they didn't need it any more.

I do keep a logbook, every logged hour is in there, but not as many as my students... I still log chock to chock and not engine start to engine stop.
I log every flight in my diary (journal in Canadian)... Many times the other person can be logging PIC but I like to have a record.

I was told the PIC is the person who takes control when there's an emergency and does the forced landing... That would normally be me.
Once I learned it should be me when I did the calm instructor bit all the way down to the below Vmcse sudden engine on situation with its violent roll... Aerobatics saved the day and I did a safe crash... TC gave me some trouble that time!
Now I worry about being in any aeroplane within my licence but flown by people less experienced, TC might go for me in the aftermath!

To me keeping a logbook, neat and in one colour, is an important part of being a pilot.
Canadians might be lax but I'm not, the CAA system is such that you must keep a logbook.
I have the written proof of my time... I hear people say "I have 12,000, 14,000 hours" but they have no logbook to back it up, it's often over stated BS because I know how often some of these people fly.

I can tell you that if you don't have a logbook, I'll take a dim view, and your check flight might be longer!

[sky's the limit]

Sorry sky's the limit, my bad. I assumed that since you seem to have it all figured out, you would have to be old!

Figured out? Most certainly not, but I know what I'll put up with and what I won't. Aviation is like marriage, you quickly learn what you can handle and what you can't, but you'll never have the whole lot figured.

The only person around here to probably have it figured is Cat, and half of you won't listen to a word he says.

stl

[Liquid Charlie]

log books are only good to a point -- my last 3 jobs I never even produced one. The difference between 5 hours on type and 100 is insignificant. I remember renting a Barron years ago and having to do a check out -- guy asked me if I had any Barron time and I stated not much -- about 500 hours -- which I thought was an accurate statement -- he almost fell out of his chair -- The point is there will always be "great pretenders" who are the exception to the rule but the majority do get found out when they lie about "big airplane" experience or IFR experience -- tell me you have 1000 hours IFR time when you only have 50 and I'll bust your ass on the first flight -- low time IFR pilots do not know the tricks learned from experience. Just the way they intercept an outbound track will set off the spydie sense

[V1]

yeah one guy i know managed to get a few hundred hours then me even though he was out of work 4 months and he just got on at Jazz on the Rj. He's good a fooling people for a certain amount of time but i think it will come back to him one day. I have to believe that.

[yycflyguy]

What is this "logbook" which you speak of?

[MrWings]

But he is still a dishonest untrustworthy individual.

If you will lie about small things how about the big things.

If you drive over the speed limit you are breaking the law. If you break the law you are a criminal. Are all speeders criminals? If you break a small law like speeding does that mean you are more likely to break bigger laws like murder?

The guy was a starving pilot looking for work and so he told a small lie. He was a safe competent pilot that didn't have the required hours to satisfy some insurance requirements. Did he put his employer at risk if there was an accident? Probably. Would he have been a better pilot if he flew some more hours on the type? Maybe, maybe not. But he was not overall a dishonest untrustworth individual.

[co-joe]

A great deal of the problem here is the value put on hours. No one cares how long you've been flying, they just want your total time. I've been flying for about 10 years but over half of that was medevacs (ie 300 hours a year). You could easily have more hours than me if you flew for 4 years at max hours, now who has more experience?

[Ronner]

Using hours in the cockpit has to be one of the worst ways to judge how much skill someone has. The military has proven this for years, they have guys with less then a 1000h fly search and rescue missions, land on carrier decks and drop bombs but to fly for the MOH or Forestry you need 1500 plus.

[Cat Driver]

The guy was a starving pilot looking for work and so he told a small lie. He was a safe competent pilot that didn't have the required hours to satisfy some insurance requirements. Did he put his employer at risk if there was an accident? Probably. Would he have been a better pilot if he flew some more hours on the type? Maybe, maybe not. But he was not overall a dishonest untrustworth individual.

O.K so he told a small lie as it was " ONLY " about 50 to 100 hours......and he was a safe competent pilot ....But he wasn't very bright because it would have been interesting if his employer wanted proof of his time.

[pushyboss]

If it's a Twin Otter job ask the candidate to put the control locks in. First clue a guy has never been in the left seat of the DHC-6 is watching them fight with the control locks. True story.....

[Cat Driver]

So, how do you feel about pilots lying about their time in type to get hired pushyboss?