Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

[hawker driver]

What is the ceiling on the Malibu?
I thought it was 25,000 feet.

Anyone fly one and know?

[miragedriver]

The airplane was JetProp, basically a Malibu Mirage airframe with a PT6-35. Normally the ceiling is FL250 for the piston versions. The STC for the turbine conversion includes an increase in the ceiling to FL270.

Condolences to the family. This is a real tragedy

[Braun]

any idea what happened to cause this incident?

[MrWings]

Initial reports are of an inflight breakup.

[Siddley Hawker]

Initial reports are of an inflight breakup.

08:09AM 53.07 -110.60 236 26200 - 08:12AM 53.03 -110.58 26 9000

He lost 17,000 feet in 3 minutes, so he surely was coming down the hill.

[ScudRunner]

I read somewhere that the debris was scattered over a 1.5KM area, If there was an inflight breakup at FL230 the debris feild would be much larger than 1.5Km. However if the Aircraft would be in a near vertical dive with the Airspeed building beyond VNE the aircraft would have broken apart at a much lower altitude thus the relativly small debris field. Thats my two cents anyone know the WX specifically Icing in that neigborhood on the day it happend?

[CD]

'Inflight breakup' caused Alta. plane wreck

Canwest News Service
Published: Saturday, March 29, 2008

EDMONTON - An "inflight breakup" caused the plane crash which killed five Friday, according to Transportation Safety Board of Canada.

Spokesman John Cottreau said Saturday it was not clear at this point what caused the plane to break up.

Two investigators from the TSBC have been on the crash scene since Friday.

They are now working with a salvage company to recover debris from the aircraft.

Cottreau said that the debris field was three kilometres in length.

The Safety Board spokesman was unable to confirm any reports the plane was moving erratically, or that the pilot indicated to an air traffic controller there was a problem with the plane's gyroscope.

Full article here...

[Alex YCV]

I read somewhere that the debris was scattered over a 1.5KM area, If there was an inflight breakup at FL230 the debris feild would be much larger than 1.5Km. However if the Aircraft would be in a near vertical dive with the Airspeed building beyond VNE the aircraft would have broken apart at a much lower altitude thus the relativly small debris field. Thats my two cents anyone know the WX specifically Icing in that neigborhood on the day it happend?

From the story posted just above:

It appears the Piper Malibu-46 started breaking up before it went down. A piece of the wing was found about five kilometres from the crash site.

This would suggest that at least a partial breakup occurred. The plane dropped quickly and lost forward speed very quickly.

condolences to the families involved.

[ScudRunner]

A piece of the wing was found about five kilometres from the crash site

There ya go 5km thats a good indicator,

5 Killed In Alberta Plane Crash
Saturday March 29, 2008
The Canadian Press
A senior investigator with the Transportation Safety Board of Canada says the plane involved in a tragic crash in eastern Alberta on Friday disintegrated in the air.

Wray Tsuji tells the Edmonton Sun for that to happen, the plane has to be overloaded and overstressed.

Reagan Williams, president of A.D. Williams Engineering, was among five people killed when the company's single-engine Piper Malibu crashed about 225 kilometres east of Edmonton.

A company spokeswoman says Williams was the pilot.

It came exactly five months after the Edmonton company lost its founder -- Williams' father -- in an airplane crash in Golden B-C.

That tragedy made national headlines when Allen's three-year-old granddaughter was found by rescuers hanging upside down in the wreckage unhurt.

The girl is Reagan's niece.

The airplane went down around 8:15 a.m.

RCMP and military personnel began the search, and a Griffon helicopter crew found the wreckage four hours later.

There was fog in the area and it had been snowing earlier in the day.

[the_professor]

any idea what happened to cause this incident?

WARNING: EDUCATED SPECULATION AHEAD

1) Erratic flight path observed by the controller, followed by reports to the controller of a gyro problem, followed by what appears to be an uncontrolled rate of descent in excess of 10,000ft/min at times, with a (more or less) continually decreasing groundspeed.

2) Wreckage found at locations other than that of the main area.

Sounds like a disoriented pilot who entered a spiral dive, exceeding the structural limits of the plane, which began to break up at the latter stages of the dive.

Pancaked wreckage suggests the possibility of a last-minute attempt at recovering from the dive, which resulted in possibly further breakup of the structure (read: wings), combined with an accelerated stall.

[The Hammer]

I'd say it's time to leave the flying to the professionals and let the engineers do the engineering.

I feel for the employees who have died unnecessarily just so the "boss" can fly his own million $ plane instead of chartering/ airlining it.

[viccoastdog]

I'd say it's time to leave the flying to the professionals and let the engineers do the engineering.

I feel for the employees who have died unnecessarily just so the "boss" can fly his own million $ plane instead of chartering/ airlining it.

It's far too early to make such silly statements and accusations - we have no idea of the pilot's experience or the cause of the in-flight break up (although there is some educated speculation). There are literally hundreds of such corporate aircraft flights happening all over North America every day - there is nothing fundimentally wrong with the idea.

Calm your outrage until you have more details.

[skyismine]

I honestly cannot say what happened but what a tragedy.

Reagan reported having problems with the gyro the day before but did not seem overly concerned with it and was hoping to have it fixed on Thursday evening.I dont know if that happened or not.

In-flight breakup seems unlikely, although that may have happened after losing situational awareness and going into a steep dive.

I have no idea.And T.C will have some answers soon.

What a loss, these people will all be deeply missed by us.

[Strega]

I'd say it's time to leave the flying to the professionals and let the engineers do the engineering.

I feel for the employees who have died unnecessarily just so the "boss" can fly his own million $ plane instead of chartering/ airlining it.

Get a life pal...


I dont want to speculate about the events the lead up to this tradgedy, but whatever happend must have been grave...

[kamdo]

Hello
Long time watcher first time poster.
I think the point that Hammer, I think it was, was trying to make... is that too many people use aircraft like fast cars or trucks. Seen these types to just load up and go many times, after a meeting or rushing to a meeting of somesort.
Partial panel to a pilot who trains for that regularly is done for a reason.
I havent met any pilot/operator in this enviroment who regularly trains for such an event, or many other emergencies.

Bottom line, its perfectly legal to fly as a Boss and Pilot.. but I think that can and has removed some of the saftey that hopefully occurs when you use a "Pro Pilot"

EXXON, SHELL, WALMART, etc, etc.. dont let their bosses act as pilots for the same reason.

My 2 bits worth

[Strega]

Hello
Long time watcher first time poster.
I think the point that Hammer, I think it was, was trying to make... is that too many people use aircraft like fast cars or trucks. Seen these types to just load up and go many times, after a meeting or rushing to a meeting of somesort.
Partial panel to a pilot who trains for that regularly is done for a reason.
I havent met any pilot/operator in this enviroment who regularly trains for such an event, or many other emergencies.

Bottom line, its perfectly legal to fly as a Boss and Pilot.. but I think that can and has removed some of the saftey that hopefully occurs when you use a "Pro Pilot"

EXXON, SHELL, WALMART, etc, etc.. dont let their bosses act as pilots for the same reason.

My 2 bits worth

so whats your point? if your a career pilot youd be just as dead?

perhaps you should tell John Travolta to get rid of is -80, or let me guess, are you a better pilot than him?

[The Hammer]

Whoa just a little over reaction here!!

I'm not speculating what happened in either crash just stating that if I owned a non-aviation company that had 2 fatal airplane crashes in 5 months that killed 7 of my employees including 2 CEO's I would take the hint and WestJet/ charter.

Your guys are f$%ked up..
If the Keystone's/ WCA's/ Skyward's of canadian aviation had 2 fatal accidents that killed 7 people in 5 months you would be screaming bloody murder/ bashing TC. Yet those companies would have performed 100's if not 1000's of more flights than these privately operated aircraft.

My opinion is only that when you start transporting your employees in an personal/ company aircraft they should be entitled to at least the same level of safety as if they are flown commercially.

Personally speaking I have no problems allowing family/ staff to ride in small aircraft when that is a reasonable option (ie remote access, up north, rural airport etc) but when flying from major city to major city there is no need for the elevated risk. The TSB/ NTSB files are filled with CEO/owner/pilot accidents.

Hell an airplane was pretty much condemned thanks to them (MU2)

[Strega]

Whoa just a little over reaction here!!

I'm not speculating what happened in either crash just stating that if I owned a non-aviation company that had 2 fatal airplane crashes in 5 months that killed 7 of my employees including 2 CEO's I would take the hint and WestJet/ charter.

Your guys are f$%ked up..
If the Keystone's/ WCA's/ Skyward's of canadian aviation had 2 fatal accidents that killed 7 people in 5 months you would be screaming bloody murder/ bashing TC. Yet those companies would have performed 100's if not 1000's of more flights than these privately operated aircraft.
My opinion is only that when you start transporting your employees in an personal/ company aircraft they should be entitled to at least the same level of safety as if they are flown commercially.

Personally speaking I have no problems allowing family/ staff to ride in small aircraft when that is a reasonable option (ie remote access, up north, rural airport etc) but when flying from major city to major city there is no need for the elevated risk. The TSB/ NTSB files are filled with CEO/owner/pilot accidents.

Hell an airplane was pretty much condemned thanks to them (MU2)

nice... your one classy individual.

when your grumble about your min wage salary, look back to your posts here for the reason.

PS John Travolta better park is 707-80 before he crashes it..

[The Hammer]

waste of time

[Strega]

Stega as a matter of fact I'm pretty much willing to bet that almost every active multi-ifr commercially operating pilot is a much lower safety risk than the average/owner operator.
The fatal accident stats per flight hr are astronomically higher for non commercially operated a/c. It's a combination of generally better/ more recent training, usually 2 pilots and just the simple fact people who perform a skill as their job generally do it better than someone who does it as a hobby.


PS In a number of Travolta's flicks, a talking monkey could have out acted him.

I'M PRETTY SURE TRAVOLTA PAYS FOR HIS PPC'S AND HE HAS A S/O AND F/O TO COVER HIS ASS

Again all Class!


Funny how John is the ambassador to the safest airline in the world.. you better write quantas to tell them what you think!

live in your little world and be dumb!

[viccoastdog]

My 2 bits worth

You rather make my point for me...your 25 cents isn't even worth that until you have more information about what happened.

The fatal accident stats per flight hr are astronomically higher for non commercially operated a/c

Compared to 703, 704, 705, single or multi crew...region of operation?..details required please. If someone wants to post such sweeping generalization, especially when using the word 'stats', then they should post the source of these statistics.

Again, outrage and accustations at this stage is only ill-adivsed and premature drivel.

[Strega]

Funny how Mr Class has deleted his post!

here it is again in case anyone wants to know


The Hammer wrote:
Stega as a matter of fact I'm pretty much willing to bet that almost every active multi-ifr commercially operating pilot is a much lower safety risk than the average/owner operator.
The fatal accident stats per flight hr are astronomically higher for non commercially operated a/c. It's a combination of generally better/ more recent training, usually 2 pilots and just the simple fact people who perform a skill as their job generally do it better than someone who does it as a hobby.


PS In a number of Travolta's flicks, a talking monkey could have out acted him.

I'M PRETTY SURE TRAVOLTA PAYS FOR HIS PPC'S AND HE HAS A S/O AND F/O TO COVER HIS ASS

[skyismine]

Ok people go ahead and speculate about someone you never met or ever knew,

Reagan and his father loved aviation, when he dropped into our fbo he often gawked at other airplanes on the ramp.He talked and breathed airplanes.

You wanna call him unsafe and whatever else than have at it.

Have a little damn respect, there were also 4 other people on this airplane who have left family and friends behind.

If you dont work as a accident investigator than dont say anything.My little bit of obviously useless advice for you.

[square]

If you dont work as a accident investigator than dont say anything.My little bit of obviously useless advice for you.

Have to disagree here, these get people thinking about what it could've been that caused an accident. Do it respectfully and all, but come on, we're thinking, it's practically a miracle.

[lilfssister]

This is why I (the queen of "stop starting threads on stuff there's already threads on") split the original thread in two:

One is for speculation and one is for sympathy and facts.

here's the other one:

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 54&t=41279