They can't count it as "dual" towards a higher license, perhaps, but it goes into the total time column. How many hours does an FTU typically take to train for a multi? I'm thinking if it's more than five, the student would be better off finding someone outside an FTU to train them for the multi.
I agree completely.
Unless the student is very low time there is no reason that it should take any more than five hours dual to be able to pass the multi engine check ride.
O.K....
...lets take low time PPL's out of this and use only CPL's .
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Last edited by Cat Driver on Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
It's a big difference from a 152 or whatever else the student's been flying. And from how bad the accident rates for single engine failures are, I think it's warranted. It's not just a check ride you do a whole TC flight test.
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Last edited by square on Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I keep hearing Cornwall is great for a realistic multi rating. Havn't really heard about any other places that do it around the 5hr mark. Having said that, I asked a long time ago if there were any private multi owners that wanted to teach me .... apparently everyone got a nice laugh outta that one...
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--Air to Ground Chemical Transfer Technician turned 4 Bar Switch Flicker and Flap Operator--
It's not just a check ride you do a whole TC flight test.
O.K. what is the difference in using the description " check ride " and " TC flight test "?
I'm probably way out of touch with all these descriptions so tell me why a CPL license holder can not pass the test with five hours of " quality " dual training for the multi engine endorsement?
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I'm no multi pilot, but from all the different single engine aircraft I've flown ... flying is flying. I would think it's reasonable to be taught the emergency procedures and handling characteristics in and around 5 hrs. Most check rides I've done are less than 0.8 then you're on your own. Having said that, if you're not familiar with blue handles and gear that dissapears, it may take an hour longer?
I could be out to lunch though.
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--Air to Ground Chemical Transfer Technician turned 4 Bar Switch Flicker and Flap Operator--
If I recall the average at perimeter was 5-6 hours for just the multi ticket. You cannot group all students in the same pile. Some learn faster then others, but usually some are just Keener then others. We had some students we really had to hound, which is funny when you think of how much money their wasteing.
A good rule for multi training, if you can't run through all the checks and emergency procedures cold from memory before you sit in the pilot seat, you are wasteing your time/money.
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The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Adam Oke wrote:Having said that, I asked a long time ago if there were any private multi owners that wanted to teach me .... apparently everyone got a nice laugh outta that one...
I believe you have to have your CPL with min 50 hrs Multi PIC and 10 hrs PIC on the aircraft that you will be teaching on to be able to recommend someone for a multi flight test.
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"It's not the size of the hammer, it's how you nail" - Kanga
It took me 4.5 hrs training. The first 2.2 was on a C310 and the last 2.3 was on a PA-34. I felt ready after the first 2.2 but the instructor said it would look better on paper when I did my ride to do a few extra hours.
Yeh, I did my first two hours on a Cessna 310F and when it had a mechanical problem I switched to an Apache for another two hours and then an hour for the flight test.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I think KAG was on the money. Know your cockpit checks and emergency proceedures cold . If you have experience with a constant speed prop and a retractable then I think 5 hours is ok. Its not likely at all that you are going solo in a twin without some more time anyway whether a rental or privately owned. I do think at most training facilities that 10 hours is more the norm unless your instructor already has a lot of mpic.Thats the kind of teacher to get for the ifr as well.
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When a pilot makes a mistake...the pilot dies.
When an air traffic contoller makes a mistake...the pilot dies.
After I was finished flying this morning I stopped in at two of the flight schools on the field... And both of them said I was looking at anywhere between 10-15 to get the multi done. What a load of B.S. Now I know that everyone learns at their own pace... One FTU uses a PA-34 and the other "used" a Twin Star. You'd think it would be quicker on the Twin Star.
KAG wrote:
A good rule for multi training, if you can't run through all the checks and emergency procedures cold from memory before you sit in the pilot seat, you are wasteing your time/money.
KAG has provided very good advice. I told all my students to first memorize all the the immediate action drills and then after the first lesson ( a short flight to provide a general aircraft famil ) go sit in the airplane on the ramp when it is not being used and run through all the normal and emergency checklists. Touch (but don`t move !) all the switches and contols to build muscle memory. I found that the number of hours of training required to meet the standard was directly determined by how much work the students put into learning the necessary procedures and actions before we got in the airplane to go flying.
After I was finished flying this morning I stopped in at two of the flight schools on the field... And both of them said I was looking at anywhere between 10-15 to get the multi done.
Go back and tell them that there are a lot of people on Avcanada who think that they are cheating you by taking that long to teach a relatively simple type upgrade.
Suggest they read this thread and see what their comments are.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
The multi-rating is no longer just a sign off like a float rating is. You have to do a flight test with a TC examiner or DTFE.
You CAN log your training time as dual if it isn't done by an instructor, you just can't use it for your training time towards your CPL (other than to the 200 total). But you only need 30 hours of dual training time anyways.
I went from flying 152s and 172s to flying a Turbo Seminole with fixed waste gate turbos. You can't just firewall it for the POWER part of the SE drill. Hard at first, but nothing requiring 10-15 hours. Including my flight test I did it in 7. Most light twins-like a regular Seminole, a Duchess, or a Twin Commanche-don't go much faster than the super easy to fly 182 anyways.
There's only a few extra levers and a few knots more speed. Go over the single engine drill over and over again while sitting in the plane or looking at a cockpit photo. It worked for me but I had to unlearn a few things for flying the Skymaster
The multi-rating is no longer just a sign off like a float rating is. You have to do a flight test with a TC examiner or DTFE.
It has always been a flight test by TC, the DFTE is a recent change, makes it easier to get the flight test because there can be quite a wait for a TC examiner.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
iflyforpie wrote:The multi-rating is no longer just a sign off like a float rating is. You have to do a flight test with a TC examiner or DTFE.
You CAN log your training time as dual if it isn't done by an instructor, you just can't use it for your training time towards your CPL (other than to the 200 total). But you only need 30 hours of dual training time anyways.
I went from flying 152s and 172s to flying a Turbo Seminole with fixed waste gate turbos. You can't just firewall it for the POWER part of the SE drill. Hard at first, but nothing requiring 10-15 hours. Including my flight test I did it in 7. Most light twins-like a regular Seminole, a Duchess, or a Twin Commanche-don't go much faster than the super easy to fly 182 anyways.
There's only a few extra levers and a few knots more speed. Go over the single engine drill over and over again while sitting in the plane or looking at a cockpit photo. It worked for me but I had to unlearn a few things for flying the Skymaster
I dont see how you can log Dual time from an "instructor" towards your commercial license.
The CARS clearly state you need 30hrs dual "commercial" training,, how is the ME rating considered commercial when a PPL can do the same training?
Strega wrote:I dont see how you can log Dual time from an "instructor" towards your commercial license.
The CARS clearly state you need 30hrs dual "commercial" training,, how is the ME rating considered commercial when a PPL can do the same training?
Could you please define "'commercial' training" as compared to any other type of training in respect of aviation?
Justwannaflyfloats wrote:After I was finished flying this morning I stopped in at two of the flight schools on the field... And both of them said I was looking at anywhere between 10-15 to get the multi done. What a load of B.S. Now I know that everyone learns at their own pace... One FTU uses a PA-34 and the other "used" a Twin Star. You'd think it would be quicker on the Twin Star.
Just curious, which field was this? It sounds like somewhere I'm well aquainted with. And what happened with their Twin Star? No replacement parts for the engines?
mcrit wrote:5-7 hrs of training will get someone to the point where they can pass a flight test. Getting them polished my take a bit longer.
Most people who have a multi rating seem to think they're polished enough already........ amazing what a ride with someone who has never flown the plane and at the end says "good job" can do to someone's ego.
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"It's not the size of the hammer, it's how you nail" - Kanga
They still haven't found parts for the engines. It's all a waiting game and they were saying that there's nothing anyone can do (thielert, diamond). They just have this $600,000 ramp ornament. Meanwhile, the club keeps jacking up their prices for aircraft and instructors, and they say it's due to the cost of fuel... which to some extent it is, but really it's to pay for the twin. They increased the instructor hourly rate... but none of the increase goes to the instructor.
