As I've always read about job ads reagrding Day VFR coastal and mountainous experiance for BC jobs. Is this a HUGE requirement? Is DVFR flying that much different flying on the coast or flying near mountains?

Reason being; when I did my little stunt in New Zealand I found coastal flying to be nothing but simple. Navigation is easy ... keep the water on your left when going there .... water on the right when heading back. Weather wasn't a tremendous difference unless the wind was coming off the water ... then you better be damn sure you wash the airplane when you get down to get all that salt off of it.

Mountain flying, I found was to be more local knowledge then anything. There are a few simple concepts to be taught about mountain flying ... but it didn't take hundreds of hours to sort that out. Infact one flight (a couple hours of glider ridge soaring approx 20ft off mountain tops) sorts you out about air flow, trends, things to look out for, rules of thumb.

Someone tell me somthing I don't know about coastal and mountain flying in day VFR conditions?

When it is day VFR on the coast, it's no big deal. Just a lot prettier. When the weather is down, and this is the big difference, it's a whole different ball of wax. The Central and North coast, weather can be down to a couple hundred feet and the wind is blowing at 50 kts and planes are still flying.

As far as mountain stuff, the rocks in BC eat single engine planes all the time and quite often they don't get found. The weather can change drastically, dropping you into the valleys and limiting your options on where you can go, especially if the weather drops below the valley exits. I've seen it snow on the Coquihalla highway all months of the year when it was forecast to be hot and sunny. In fact one trip, towards Kamloops (driving), I was in a snowstorm while there were forest fires going on just a couple km's away. I was witness to two plane crashes (172's) in the Kokanee glacier park area about 10 years ago. 1 plane caught in the downdrafts over the glacier. 2nd plane went out to look for it and same thing happened. It crashed 1km away. That was on a beautiful sunny summer day. The trick with Day VFR in BC is that it lasts for a few minutes at a time.

The climate in New Zealand and BC is completely different. Because you flew where there is water and rocks, don't be fooled into complacency thinking it is no big deal. The mountains here DO kill people.

Airtids has flown in the BC interior quite a bit. I'm sure he'll have quite a bit more to add.

No offense Adam,

But you couldn't be further from correct.

Coastal Flying is about weather, and I venture to say the weather on the Coasts of Canada - all three of them - can be extremely treacherous. Any idiot can fly on a blue bird day anywhere. Map reading when it's 300ft overcast and raining to beat hell is an entirely different matter. Then there's the wind in coastal areas, combine it with mountains, and you get a very trick scenario.

"Local knowledge" has very little to do with mountain flying. Knowledge of wind and altitude, how they work, what happens at different temperatures/altitudes/windspeeds, has everything to do with it. Cruising around at the Flight Levels is NOT mountain flying.

I have a pie in the oven, so I'm off, but I'd be happy to elaborate later.


stl

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sky's the limit wrote:No offense Adam,

But you couldn't be further from correct.

Just stirring the pot to see what I can hear about what it's all about. Keep the posts coming

altiplano wrote:

Someone tell me somthing I don't know about coastal and mountain flying in day VFR conditions?

I guess you know it all... that may be your problem...

I don't know anything. That's my problem. Merely curious to hear what it's all about and why it's always tagged on job boards. This is a contraversial topic at most. When does a DVFR job ad with coastal / mountainous experience start to play in effect with "MVFR/pushing weather experience required".

As I flew in olny DVFR conditions, but never have and likely never will have the opportunity/desire to push weather. I like my options.

So is coastal experiance tagged on job ads, more so an indirect statement with regards that you will likely encounter or be required to fly MVFR in mountainous regions?

They aren't likely to get you to push the weather. Coastal Experience required means you understand that this "easy day vfr stuff" can quickly turn into this "holy s--t what the f--k am I doing flying in this" and you will recognize the signs and know your options and save your ass to fly another day.

Float operators pushing the weather on the coast is one thing. Despite all the swells and currents and other things they deal with, they have the option to put it down in a lot more places than a landplane does.
If you are in 003 OVC over the Grenville channel with nothing but 3 tires under you and an IO-540 out front, you might consider another line of work.

As far as an operator getting you to go MVFR in the mountains. That is just straight up stupid. Again, they want you to recognize the signs when the weather is going down and know how to get you, your airplane and your valuable passengers or cargo out of it. Recognizing that the weather is going to go down isn't just as simple as "hey there's some clouds". By that point you might be neck deep in trouble. There's other signs and knowledge that can let you know long before the clouds start forming that you should be drinking coffee on the ground.

By the way, that is precisely the reason why on Navcanada they have the west coast GFA. The weather is vastly different in the different areas for different reasons. I miss when you were able to actually go in the FSS stations and get a one on one weather briefing. Those guys knew their stuff and I found that when they said a certain type of weather would happen in a couple of hours or stick around for days or would be lifting in a couple of hours that they were right 95% of the time. No offense to the guys in the Kamloops FIC but they took a lot of local knowledge away when pilots were barred from the FSS stations.

Good post. Any other insight or opinions out there? STL when yea get the chance would like to hear what you have to say.

Well,

Now that my stomach is ridiculously full, I'll see if I can make any sense before my pancreas explodes... Made a lemon pie from scratch - HIGHLY recommend it....

The way I see things, flying - any flying - is about management of factors. These factors include your aircraft type and its capability, you and your skills/knowledge/EXPERIENCE, and your environment; both physical and atmospheric among many others. How you manage these things determines how well any given flight will turn out. There is a huge difference in my opinion, between just flying somewhere, and flying with skill and competence.

Mountain flying, and coastal mountain flying in particular, exaggerate all these factors many times, reduce margins of safety and make the decision making process more critical. Not respecting that can lead to some seriously uncomfortable moments, or worse.

100% of fixed wing pilots (and I was one of them) come out of school with almost ZERO practical knowledge about wind, and how it behaves in a mountainous environment. Acquiring that knowledge comes with experience and learning from those with experience. Unfortunately our flight training system in Canada is whoafully lacking in this department - but I digress.

Those of you who fly here know what I'm going to say, those of you who don't might think I'm overstating things a bit, I'm not, but here it goes anyway.

RESPECT

Respect the environment. Seasons matter, they bring WX of all kinds, some of it VERY quickly. Learn about how mountain or coastal weather works, learn how to recognize impending changes, and until you are VERY comfortable with this, PLAY IT SAFE. Whether on floats, wheels, or even in a helicopter, you CAN get caught very easily by weather if you don't know what to look for, and getting caught on glaciers or other unfriendly places is not a whole lots of fun.

Respect your machine. Just because the machine CAN do something, doesn't necessarily mean you should do it. In difficult terrain/weather, you always want to leave something in the tank for the Wife/Husband and Kids. Until you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that you can get off that lake or airstrip/sandbar, out-climb that down-flowing wind, or in my case, set that sling load safely, err on the side of caution. It takes years and thousands of hours to learn these things, and when you move machines, or locations, the process starts again. The neat part is, when you finally KNOW these things, if you've learned anything along the way, you'll always leave something in reserve... There isn't a customer or load in the world worth dieing for.

UNDERSTANDING

Understanding what you know, and what you DON'T, while leaving you ego at the dock/pad/ramp is critically important when working in the hills or on the coast. That's NOT to say there aren't some people doing some extraordinary things with their machines, but I'd be willing to bet that they went through the process above before they did. It's amazing what conditions a person can fly in once they understand all those factors, and it never ceases to amaze me what becomes "normal" after a period of time. People are very adaptable, and resetting the bar happens a lot. You just need to ensure in these locations that the bar is not reset BEFORE you KNOW what the hell you're doing. If it is, you're an accident waiting to happen. In my world, we work in very specific locations, often for months at a time, and while you may get to know every rock, bush or crevasse by name, it doesn't mean that when the fog is to the ground you should be out there with the door off hovering through the muck - even though you can...

Understanding where you are working, what works, and what doesn't on any given day is so important. Use the resources available to you, more experienced pilots, books, fisherman, heliski guilds, trappers, lodge owners, whatever. Just seek out the people who know how to work in these locations. Talking to them will at least give you a baseline of knowledge that will help you learn for yourself. And we ALL have to learn for ourselves.

HUMILITY

We all want to "be the best." We all want to be "the guy." Fine, but have the humility to understand that you don't come out of the womb knowing how to fly airplanes or helicopters - particularly on the coast or in the mountains. You CAN learn, if you have patience and if you put in the time. It's NOT rocket science like some people would have you believe, but there is a method, and there are things that work and things that don't work.

I suppose most of what I just wrote applies to all types of flying, but in the Arctic, the mountains, or on either of our Coast's, the consequences of mistakes are considerable. You have an obligation to your owner, your customers, and yourself, to learn as much as possible about your craft, and the locations you ply it in.

stl
PS I'm not going to give a mountain flying lesson, but with the right attitude towards it, anyone can learn what they need to know in order to operate in these places safely.

? ... You know Sky's the Limit .... I've been asking all the Heli Pilots around your world if they are STL but they all say ... who mee/?? Nope I don't even read Avcanada. So who ever you are, I gotta say I've been looking at the Cell towers on the top of all the mountains North of Powell River (now that the snow has melted) and I have concluded that you are totally crazy insane to land on those tiny heli pads on the top of the mountains. Float flying dangerous ... ahhhh no!!!! Heli flying and landing on top of a mountain peak to service a cell tower .... priceless. You deserve the monster balls award and a large piece of fruit cake, not pie for dinner. Cheers dude.

Stl,

Seriously the best post I've read in a long time.

Cheers.

I think everyone should back a lemon pie and eat it prior to posting if that's the outcome.

STL great post

and getting caught on glaciers or other unfriendly places is not a whole lot of fun.

How appropriate.

The biz I work in involves servicing repeater towers for all the major government agencies. Living in the rocks means that there are a lot of towers, and mostly on the top of mountains, some on the top of glaciers.

Tower goes down one night. It was the ambulance repeater, essential in this area as accidents on our roads are common, and communication an imperative. We get the call to be down at the airport for 11:00 a.m. for a trip up in the 206 to the top of the glacier to check the gear and fix whats broke. Generally these trips are ten minutes in, ten minutes out with a turnaround of 30 minutes.

Take off and the sky is clear. Get dropped up top and begin testing and fixing of the repeater. The sky is so clear the pilot decides he is going to do another pickup and dropoff somewhere inside the park at a lower altitude.

The repeater is now working and as the helicopter is coming in for its pickup the weather is following him in, and just as he sets down, so does the weather. Weather in the kootenays is strange. It can go from mild to wild in a matter of minutes, and the wild is truely wild... especially on the top of kokanee.

At this point in time the temp is dropping like acid at a who concert and the helicopter (left running) is starting to get low on the fuel side of things. The guys are outside the bird doing jumping jacks to keep warm and now it is starting to get dark.

If the helicopter does not liftoff, people are dead. It is freezing up there and though the crew was dressed for the elements but a camp-out on the top of the mountain is not an option, neither is hiking out.

after more than an hour of battling the elements and hypothermia a crack developes in the snow/cloud and finally the 206 gets down... not without a bit of a scare on the way down.

Lesson, this guy had well over 10k hours and still almost got caught.

Personally, weather changes aside, the mountain wave downdraught scares the shit out of me. Try escaping a 20kfpm downdraught in a 172.. not going to happen... doubt even a pawnee with the throttle jammed open will get you out of that

BoostedNihilist wrote:Try escaping a 20kfpm downdraught in a 172.. not going to happen... doubt even a pawnee with the throttle jammed open will get you out of that

Heh, Nope. The worst I had seen was 2kfpm down, and 1.5kfpm down trying to bust through rotor to get to primary wave for those glider pilots.

Great story Boosted,

(I must apologize for the typing in the previous post - insulin shock...)

It's one I've experienced a few times, and most of us flying here in B.C. can relate with.

There are many occasions when a "quick trip" to a repeater turns into a very serious situation. I actually got quite annoyed with my customers last November when they showed up for one of these quick fixes in jeans, with no proper gear of any kind, and of course too much weight for the 7000ft repeater site.

We arrived in the area, the ceiling was about 8000ft, with a lot more sinister weather baring down from the North West. I had another crew in the area, so after the initial drop off at the repeater amid worsening conditions, I left to go the 4nm where my other crew was located. Descending out of about 5000ft over the lake, it started to snow, and realizing things were moving MUCH faster than they looked, I decided to head back up to collect my repeater guys.

Except.... They hadn't turned their radio on, and both were in the clamshell when I landed on the peak... There had been much fresh snow and the landing was a classic white out with very little reference and rather off-level, rendering me unable to leave the machine to get the guys. Now, as a pilot, you are responsible for your customers, like it or not - even ones who don't show up with proper gear, don't turn their radios on after drop off despite a thorough briefing to the contrary, and inexplicably, don't bother to look out the door when the helicopter returns not 5 minutes after drop off in worsening weather!

"Pissed" doesn't do my feeling justice, so I sat idling in the snow, increasing wind, and now gathering clouds waiting for one of these guys to get the message. They finally did, and once we loaded up, things were dramatically different than they had been not 5 minute prior. Now, faced with a very tricky departure down to lower altitudes, I wasn't exactly a happy camper. Of course it worked out, but that same scenario Boosted outlined has played itself out so many times in the past.

Operating in the mountains, particularly in helicopters, put pilots in many situations where they are responsible for not only their own lives, but those of the customers. Not respecting the environment will kill you, as Boosted said, regardless of hours.

Thanks for sharing Boosted.

stl

coastal flying can be bad news, but its amazing what you can get used to. Crazy tides, swells, gusts, low vis, turbulence, snow, glassy water are all possible in one trip. The plus side is the weather reporting nowadays is pretty good, you can really make a pretty good go no go decision before hand in a lot of cases. There are webcams a lot of places so you can see the how big the waves are in places too. The key is to start where you are doing a few of the same runs a lot to get the local knowledge and get used to the swells and what the winds are like coming from diff angles over the mountains. The weather can change fast and you need to have an out in mind (taking 2 way fuel). Its also a good challenge but there will always be a few pucker factor moments. If you work for a relaxed company and can easily say "screw it" when you want, then its not too bad. Crossing the straights single engine style looking down a building sized waves isnt for everyone. I think flying in bc can be a challenge for chopper float and ifr guys alike. As long as you just always count on mother nature trying to kill you then those nice days become a real gift.

STL

Yeah, I always take a pretty good crash kit with me when I get dropped.. never know.

Anyways, I'll see your cold-ass mountain top photo




and raise you an 'oh @#$!, who brought the shovel?'

Lol,

Finally! Somebody's decided to play the photo game with me... Very exciting....

You're one of the smart customers then, you are few and far between. I've taken to regularly sending them back to the office or home for extra gear before going somewhere....

Nice picture, looks alot like the DEW Line sites up in the Arctic.... But speaking of mountain weather, here's one of a Geo Student who got himself stuck at 6000ft up a mountain on the Alaska border just out of Stewart, BC.... It doesn't really need explaining other than he had not packed the mandated gear in his pack, and this came in.....

Impressed I was not... He got a lecture to end lectures!




stl

Stl, we get that ALL the time.. people showing up for charters wearing jeans/khakis and a tee shirt in the damn arctic!

Weather changes in these places quite quickly.

Excellent posts and great photos. STL, I just sent you a PM and was wondering when you were going share your pics...not sure how I missed them!

Dressing smart for the Arctic can be quite complex. Dressing warm while being careful to not overdress is often a tough call because sweating can make things just as dangerous as being exposed. I took an Arctic Survival course with an extraordinary mother and daughter who are well-known in polar exploration and their motto was, "YOU SWEAT YOU DIE"! After working as a medical person in the Arctic for a couple of years I have seen quite a few Inuit suffering from exposure related hypothermia in the SUMMER!!

I apologize for lack of any flying tips...maybe one day. Keep the photos and posts coming
cheers