The Dumbing Down of Aviation

[Doc]

Is aviation being "dumbed down"? I see Cat Driver commenting on this on several posts. How training is being brought down to the lowest common denominator. Checklists and SOPs are being followed blindly. Thinking "outside the box" is discouraged at all costs. SMS, while probable a good "thought" has become simply a tool for companies to "hide behind" ensuring their protection as long as the paperwork is up to date and signed.
When I read posts that indicate the action for smoke in the cockpit at two hundred feet, at night, in a black hole, is to turn off the lights and kill the radios and navaides is SOP, I have to give my head a shake.
When I read comments like "Kudos to the crew for doing a great job...." when the "great job" is an uncontrolled journey through the trees with nobody driving the stinking airplane, I must agree with the Cat.
Aviation IS being "dumbed down" to the lowest IQ possible. Thinking is really a thing of the past. Don't "think", "react" seems to be the buzz term in aviation today. It will save some lives, I guess. But it will cause some to be lost as well.
Smoke in the cockpit? Leave the lights on, thanks. Oh, and the instruments....I'm going to need them as well.

[Tim]

Funny we were talking about that same thing this morning in the lounge. I wouldn't say outside the box thinking is DIScouraged, but it certainly isn't ENcouraged either. Thinking does seem to be going by the wayside though. React vs think seems to be an accurate statment too.

When I was training the checklist was just step 1 in dealing with an emergency. Once you were done with the checklist the next question from my instructor was 'now what are you gonna do'. I don't think that happens much any more.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I teach a 1 2 3 method of dealing with a mechanical problem:

(1) Identify the problem.

(2) Agree on a solution.

(3) Solve the problem.

Blind following of a check list or following a SOP without understanding what you are really doing can lead to disaster.

Like Doc said: Never do anything stupid fast.

I have been out of the small sector of airplanes for quite some time but from what I am reading there are as many SOP's for the same type of airplanes as there are religions and they are followed with the same blind faith in far to many cases.

[Changes in Latitudes]

I tend to agree. A good aviator will use every tool at his disposal to perform a procedure properly and make logical decisions. Our industry has done an incredible job in pairing of experience with technology in efforts to minimize risk. I fundamentally agree with all of our tools and their intended application. SMS, SOPs, checklists, GPS, FMS, whatever, they all serve a specific purpose and have their place. Our technology and safety programs are not to blame. It is the application of these items that we fail on. No one item is a substitue for sound judgement and reasoning but somewhere in our training practices, we have let go of that notion a little bit.

It's not difficult understand why we have gotten to this point, either. We've pretty much run out of unique ways to drive an aircraft into the ground. There isn't too much I can do to an airplane that someone hasn't already tried/died doing. Everytime something has happened, a new SOP, a new restriction a new checklist has been put in place. Again, this is not a bad thing, but it doesn't eliminate the need for sound judgement and proper decision making skills in the cockpit.

It takes but a few seconds to ask yourself "Is this procedure, tool, or action going to put this aircraft on the ground safely in the least amount of time?"

[New Flyer]

While quite new to having my PPL, I have been involved in aviation for over twenty years.

And I have come to one certain conclusion:

Its takes a lot of money to become a pilot.
It does not necessarily take a lot of brains.

The actions, comments and general attitude of the younger generation has left me in dumbfounded silence on more than one occasion.

[trey kule]

We also were talking about this Doc. Fgure you got it just about right., though I dont see any change until we start upgrading the whole training business...and I include the college type flight schools that try to substitute attitude and , well attitude for experience.

god on you for saying what is not PC. I predicted a few years ago on AvCanada that we would be seeing more of this type of accident in the future...but hey, what do you and I know...all got down safe...bloddy unbelievable comment...right up there with just throw the old gangbar..think about this . ..beats thinking I guess

[xsbank]

When I teach somebody about airplanes, I say "use your superior brain to solve the difficult problems and use the SOPs to deal with the easy ones."

Shutting everything off at 200 feet and "smoking it in" are certainly not anyone's SOPs.

The manufacturers come up with checklists and procedures through tons of test flying and customer experience (and lawyers!) and the first thing that a C.P. does when they take possession of the aircraft is re-invent the checklist and the SOPs based on some other, entirely different a/c in the fleet, or just because they can. If I were God (actually, I'm going to be the new CEO of GM Canada when Duceppe buys it for us all - aren't you happy for me?), except for private aircraft, I would make the checklists and SOPs sacrosanct, making them as difficult to modify as the actual aircraft is.

[YoungPunk]

I remember the gospel of my flight instructor:

Step 1: FLY THE PLANE!

Step 2: Do what needs to be done, DONT FORGET ABOUT STEP 1!!!

oh how true.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Doc, this is a good subject, unfortunately it is in the wrong thread.

Where this belongs is in the flight training thread.

However it would soon get trashed because it is the flight training sector of this industry where the problems start.

I quit posting there because it was hopeless trying to communicate with that group, but still read it just so I can kneel down before I go to bed at night and thank whoever is in charge that I don't have to deal with that mindset.

Some of the comments and teaching methods that the FTU group teach are part of the reason we end up with the " Gangbar the thing and ride it into the ground blind " mentality.

[Flying Nutcracker]

So when are we going to step up to the plate and actually act like professionals and encourage the dumbing up of aviation through integrity and leading by good example???

Heck... if the authorities can't do it, who can?!?!?

[Doc]

So when are we going to step up to the plate and actually act like professionals and encourage the dumbing up of aviation through integrity and leading by good example???

Heck... if the authorities can't do it, who can?!?!?

Good question. I think the "dumbing down" has been going on long enough, that now it's considered the norm. The "thinking" will have to be put back by training departments. Obviously, in my opinion at least, a training captain who advocates blind adherence to check lists and SOP's each and every time, under all circumstances is the enemy here. Don't look to the "authorities" for guidance.....they are the origin of the problem.

We need to run scenarios in training situations, and in SIMS where blindly following published procedures will actually end in death to all on board. Now...."What should/would you have done differently?" Turning off all the electrics at 200 feet in the dark (in a sim, please) and saying..."you have control..." ought to soil the odd pair of knickers.....

[F/O Crunch]

Checklists and SOPs are being followed blindly. Thinking "outside the box" is discouraged at all costs.

Really? I'm a young fella... that ain't me. Not saying what you say has no truth but it's a pretty bold statement.
I've flown with people from all age groups, and my previous generation haven't exactly been johnny rockstars up there either. Doc, I like what you're saying. New Flyer, I dont think singling out the "new generation" is key.. or contructive.

Chow!
foc

[E-Flyer]

Is aviation being "dumbed down"? I see Cat Driver commenting on this on several posts. How training is being brought down to the lowest common denominator. Checklists and SOPs are being followed blindly. Thinking "outside the box" is discouraged at all costs. SMS, while probable a good "thought" has become simply a tool for companies to "hide behind" ensuring their protection as long as the paperwork is up to date and signed.
When I read posts that indicate the action for smoke in the cockpit at two hundred feet, at night, in a black hole, is to turn off the lights and kill the radios and navaides is SOP, I have to give my head a shake.
When I read comments like "Kudos to the crew for doing a great job...." when the "great job" is an uncontrolled journey through the trees with nobody driving the stinking airplane, I must agree with the Cat.
Aviation IS being "dumbed down" to the lowest IQ possible. Thinking is really a thing of the past. Don't "think", "react" seems to be the buzz term in aviation today. It will save some lives, I guess. But it will cause some to be lost as well.
Smoke in the cockpit? Leave the lights on, thanks. Oh, and the instruments....I'm going to need them as well.

I think the issue lies within the concept that becoming a pilot is simply too easy. I don't agree with the tough restrictions such as in the JAA, but come on... it's ridiculously easy to study one book, FTGU, and pass one flight test.

I think flying should be like a university subject which requires high grades from the beginning, like becoming a doctor. Firstly, this will eliminate the easyness of becoming a pilot. Thus, there wouldn't be as many of us, and therefore, we would be highly sought after and would be paid properly.

Also by enforcing good grades before going through a Pilot Based University, you have well motivated, passionate, and ambitious people entering and graduating the programs, and there would be no need for Air Canada to specify a DEGREE to weed out the passionate and dedicated for a job. I believe that's their whole point, becoming a pilot is so easy, they want candidates to who took the extra initiative, (dedication, passion, ambition) to learn something else.

I know we have "4 year bachelors of business with aviation majors" but they're basically doing the PPL/CPL/MIFR like anybody else, simply with the addition of some airline management courses and the rest being intensive business courses which let alone, doesn't allow the students to focus 100% on flying.

How about having MET/NAV/PDM/RELATIONSHIPS/AIR LAW/PURPOSE OF UNDERSTANDING AIRLAW... and more important courses at the university level? Put those courses together with flying and call it a Bachelors of Aviation. Not the other crap like Bachelors of Aviation Business, Aviation Science, Aerospace... Have one specifically made for candidates becoming proficient pilot's. Not in flying, but in thinking as well.

I also think that there is a lack of purpose and reasoning for current students. They don't see the direct benefits and reasons behind why they have to learn the things they learn. It sort of leads to a sense of rote learning which doesn't really benefit the student at all. But if they're exposed to the reasons, proofs, and extensive theory, they would appreciate the science going on much more and would most likely gain a lot of insights.

There was a guy not too long ago who stated that he doesn't care about bernoulli's principle and flying... he just thought it's important to fly and not think; these are the dumb farts who have passed their "flight tests" and "written tests" as demanded by TC, and are responsible for 100's of passengers.

Interesting Topic Doc !

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Had there been the need to get a Bachelors of Aviation degree to become a commercial pilot when I started I would have never made it past a PPL.

I guess I was really lucky to have learned to fly when my grade eight education was sufficient.


Of course the airplanes were easier to fly in those days and that probably accounts for my having got in before all these difficult to out think airplanes were designed.

I have been following the discussion on the flight training forum about the temperature differences on the wing of a Cessna 172 and was so fascinated by the question I am going to try and see if there is a difference between the temperature of my hand and my dick when I whack off.

[E-Flyer]

Had there been the need to get a Bachelors of Aviation degree to become a commercial pilot when I started I would have never made it past a PPL.

I guess I was really lucky to have learned to fly when my grade eight education was sufficient.


Of course the airplanes were easier to fly in those days and that probably accounts for my having got in before all these difficult to out think airplanes were designed.

It's true that your IQ increases with more education. And most of the 55+year old dudes who are now senior captains with ACA and such were people with the same back ground as you .. A lot of the guys in Transport setting out rules are from the same kind of educational background as well.

What was said by F/O is true, you can't blame the new generation on the Lowered IQ standards... Typically you learn from people with more experience which would typically make them a generation before you. I actually think people are smarter and more insightful now in comparison to before. Education is more prominent and enforced. Sheeesh... finishing high school is a big step if you think about it, but it's no longer considered a good level of education cause civilization standards require us to have a degree now.

I am not looking forward to the day where the PHD is where the civlization standard is... that's gotta be a tough 20 years of education.


.... lol about your last comment, i thought you were happily married

[AuxBatOn]

I think flying should be like a university subject which requires high grades from the beginning, like becoming a doctor. Firstly, this will eliminate the easyness of becoming a pilot. Thus, there wouldn't be as many of us, and therefore, we would be highly sought after and would be paid properly.

I think what the problem is, is the lack of standard from Transport and the FTU, and the lack of boudaries for the obtention of a license. IMHO, if you can't get the PPL within 60 hours, you have a problem and maybe flying isn't for you. Same goes with the CPL. 200 hours is more than enough.

I do think that checklist, SOPs and such have their place in the cockpit, simply because it keeps everyone on the same page and makes the decision process for the less experienced. The checklists (I'm talking emergency checklists mostly) have, most likely, been designed by people much more intelligent than I am and that were actually in a relaxed environment. Coming up with something in the middle of an emergency and thinking outside the box, under massive stress maybe isn't the best thing to do, especially with someone with little experience. However, if you find yourself in a situation that you have not been trained, then fill your boots and use your experience to take appropriate actions.

As you gain experience, you are able to draw from that experience to take the appropriate decisions in a particular situation. In any good organisation, SOPs are constantly changing and I often make a point by using the SOP in a situation that obviously doesn't make sense (safety prevailing), just to make others aware that this particulare procedure may not be good in this or this situation and maybe have an SOP ammendment.

But I do believe that an unexperienced guy should definately go by the SOPs, the Checklist as their common sense may not be sharp enough to take the correct decisions, because of their innecperience.

As far as making Flight Training a University degree, I don't see this happening since the material taught in Ground School is in no way University material and the technical aspect is more of college level. A College Diploma would be more suitable. Actually, CQFA (Centre Québécois de Formation Aeronautique, or Quebec Aeronautical Training Center) in Chicoutimi, QC have a program exactly like you mentionned. The selection process is extremely competitive and they only take 40 candidates a year (out of something like 500 applicants). Not everybody makes it to grad and the standards are fairly high. Upon grad, you get a College Diploma.

[AuxBatOn]

I have been following the discussion on the flight training forum about the temperature differences on the wing of a Cessna 172 and was so fascinated by the question I am going to try and see if there is a difference between the temperature of my hand and my dick when I whack off.

While knowing the temp difference on the wing may not have a direct influence on how you fly an aircraft, it sure helps you understand all the principle behind a flight. And actually, that concept had a direct effect on my flight today as we had to climb through an icing layer and once on top, we had to burn it off (hey, no boots ), by going faster. How much faster? Well, somebody sat down one day and made the calculations and came up with 450 Kts as a suitable speed. So that kind of discussion sure has its benefits IMHO.

And for an Aviation Geek like myself, I like combining my formal education with my work. That's why I'll try to get into one of the Test Pilot School.

[fanspeed]

The only thing I do before I fly the aircraft is put on my O2 mask, so I can continue to fly the aircraft.....

Heard an operator comment on the radio that they weren't permitted to fly an NDB approach....pretty sure it was an FMS equipped a/c as well....dumbing down indeed.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

.... lol about your last comment, i thought you were happily married

I am but at my age it is the only way I can cheat on my wife.

Now back to the other stuff.

As to the thing about temperature rise on the wing, that is not a black magic science because thirty years ago all I had to do was use my whiz wheel so as long as I could read the words and the numbers i could get the answer.

Flying an airplane does not require a university degree however that does not mean one should not avail themself of all the education one can get.

When I did the training on the Sim at Airbus Industries there was nothing that I could not figure out with my level of education.

Here is the real answer to making it in aviation, you can do anything you put your mind to...even with grade eight as a start.

I am quite satisfied with my career because I did most everything in aviation and flew most everything out there for over fifty years accident free and no violation of the rules conviction...they never caught me.

[Strega]

Cat one of the big differences between you and todays pilot is you learned how to fly, while the "pilot" of today, learns how to push "ALT" "HDG" "NAV" etc..

it seems the art of learning to "fly" has been lost, and been replaced with reading a checklist that someone else created.

[BoostedNihilist]

I have been following the discussion on the flight training forum about the temperature differences on the wing of a Cessna 172 and was so fascinated by the question I am going to try and see if there is a difference between the temperature of my hand and my dick when I whack off.

I think you would have to take into account the heat transfer function of the ky jelly

[MichaelP]

A lot of posters forget what they themselves were like and how much they knew when they got their PPLs many years ago.
If I look at my own logbooks I can point out my own mistakes based on what I have learned with experience.

But I do agree, there has been a dumbing down. I was made to learn the standard RAF checklists and now I use both written and memory as a check against each other.
But times change too, how many kids build balsa aeroplanes and fly them and therefore really get a basic understanding?

Attitudes come from the schools, is it too easy for children these days? Is competitiveness really that bad?
The correction is for instructors to encourage students to learn more than what is in the FTGU and FTM, there are a lot of good books to read... My lot even get to read the RAF training manual from 1931, there's some excellent illustrations in there, magnetos and engine bits, and the Avro 504K forced landing procedure is very similar to what we do in a Cessna!

I learned that one job I was in for that I didn't get, hinged on the fact I don't have a degree.
It's a lot easier these days to get a degree with more sources of financial aid.
There's many complaints about the student loans, but in my time there was only grants based on your parent's income; I was stuck and had to earn a living.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I think you would have to take into account the heat transfer function of the ky jelly

Never use it, saliva does a better job not to mention it saves all that foreplay drudgery when you have something other than your hand to use.

By the way what in hell do they mean when they say you are not romantic enough?

[Doc]

I "double dog" dare you to spend a day without your check lists. Leave them alone. You can do it. Be sure to get the major items. You know. Like the landing gear. Leave the PAPIs off during the day. Discuss what you'll do if an engine stops. No check lists. Go "fly" the airplane. By hand. Give "Auto" the day off. You can do this. It's easy. You'll need to leave the GPS on. I know you don't have maps on board. I'm not saying be "stupid" about it. If a real emergency happens, run the check lists....but could you handle it without the check lists? Of course you could. Think. That's the bottom line.

[Strega]

Doc,

I really like the "Think" attitude,,

Again today I saw (at -15C) someone try to drain the water out of the fuel tanks on a cessna 172 that had been sitting out on the ramp for the last few days... THINK people!!!