American Pilots coming to Canada?

Embraer190 · Post by **Embraer190** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:22 pm

As of now, there are over 4,000 furloughed pilots in the United States. I'm not sure how it works, but could any of these guys come up here and take our flight deck jobs? I don't know much about the licence conversion system, but I would hate to see pilot jobs being given to American pilots rather than Canadian pilots. There are too many pilots for the amount of jobs in the United States (probably because IMHO it's easier to become a pilot there in comparison to here). Enlighten me avcanadians.

Meatservo · Post by **Meatservo** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:55 pm

I don't know about the legality of it but I have always been under the impression that American pilots can not come to work here. I don't think it has anything to do with any difference in the quality of their training, but I think it has something to do with there being no demand for their services here. I think they have to demonstrate that there are no qualified Canadians for the job they are coming here to do before being allowed to do it. Have you ever noticed there are quite a few Australians and New Zealanders flying here but I have seldom if ever met an American working as a pilot here. I don't know why. I just pulled this answer out of my a$$, but I think this is why we never see them.

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:13 pm

Get of your soap box Embraer190.

The licensing is so easy to get down here. They give them away in cracker jack boxes.

Despite Cat Drivers love for TC, someone there colluded with the FAA and thought a one for one swap of licenses would be fair. Must mean that Canadian pilot training and licensing standards are far superior huh?

CE-750Driver · Post by **CE-750Driver** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:27 pm

Hey All

It has nothing to do with the licences. It is an immigration issue. The U.S. has immigration laws, so does Canada.

Just as a Canadian can't work in the U.S. (yeah, yeah, there are exceptions - doctors, computer geeks, etc.), there aren't going to be a flood of Americans trying to cross the border.

Easy way to weed them out, ask them to do an ADF Approach!

Gord

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:31 pm

Easy way to weed out a Canadian pilot?

Ask to do an LPV approach, hehe.

chipmunk · Post by **chipmunk** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:48 pm

Nark wrote:Easy way to weed out a Canadian pilot?

Ask to do an LPV approach, hehe.

Easy way to weed out an American pilot?

Ask to do a NDB approach.

More than once during sim training in the US, the instructor tries to throw in one of these to be "mean" and is surprised when we don't even blink.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:56 pm

Yeh the NDB approach is really black magic...right up there with the dreaded black hole approach.

aileron · Post by **aileron** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:56 pm

Embraer190 wrote:As of now, there are over 4,000 furloughed pilots in the United States. I'm not sure how it works, but could any of these guys come up here and take our flight deck jobs?...

The sad thing is what flight deck jobs?

Flybabe · Post by **Flybabe** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:01 pm

It could be me, but....

If Americans have to go through the same CRAP to work up here as I did to work down there, you won't see many of them. It ain't easy.

Hooked · Post by **Hooked** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:40 pm

IMHO I wouldn't worry too much about a bunch of "Yanks" coming to Canada to take away jobs. Pretty much the only way for an American to come to Canada to work as a commercial pilot is if said American is a Canadian qualified instructor. If they come to Canada and get a Canadian instructor rating then a work permit is pretty much guaranteed, according to the foreign worker manual. Immigration sets it up so that if a foreigner comes and spends their money on an instructor rating then they get the chance to use it. However getting the Canadian Border Service to follow the immigration manuals and protocol is a bit tough. To get CBS to give the work permit the "Yank" has to get a Labour Market Opinion from HRSDC who says you don't need it. It is actually a simple process that is greatly complicated by the left hand not knowing what the right is doing. I know because I am a "Yank" working legally as a flight instructor in Canada. The whole process was a total nightmare. The first time I applied for the work permit I got booted out of Canada, because the young border guard wouldn't bother to look at the hand book, which I had a highlighted copy of, that says an American with a Canadian instructor rating does not need the LMO for the work permit. So I had to get the LMO anyway which took about 60 days. Tons of phone calls to Immigration, Border Service, and HRSDC with all three saying that I need to do three different things. I finally had to schedule a meeting with a representative from all three government agencies at the same time same place to finally get a straight answer as to what I needed to do the get the work permit. It was actually funny because they all three had different interpretations of the rules and each wanted it done their way. They finally agreed on a process and I followed it. Lots more phone calls to follow.
The next obvious question is why Canada? Well I took a vacation from college came to Canada to visit friends. Always wanted to fly and at the time I was getting $1.60 C to $1 US so I did about 10 hours while I was here. Got to solo. Returned to the States, totally hooked on flying, and Tim Hortons XL TT. Found an instructor who was happy to teach me straight and level for three more hours. He got fired after the third hour of straight and level, as I also realized at that time I, at 10 hours had done more spins than he had. Saved my pennies returned to Canada where they teach people how to really handle an airplane, and got all my other licenses and ratings. I feel that I will always be a better pilot for training and teaching in Canada.
So the point is that if there is going to be a mass influx of "Yank" pilots they better have deep enough pockets to pay for an instructor rating, support themselves, and then wait at least 30 days, if they find an employer who will do the paperwork, and still take a chance that it may not be approved because somewhere someone didn't read "That Memo." Considering the wages an instructor makes I don't think you'll be having to many people jump at that one.
Another thing is that HRSDC seems to believe that a rookie non type rated FO should make about $4000.00 per month. As most of you know that is a little unrealistic, from most Canadian operators. So unless the employer is willing to pay the American that much they are not allowed to hire them. If by some chance they want the person bad enough that they agree to 48K a year then the American would be making more than a Canadian and that is automatic grounds for denial of the LMO. I know I tried.
Just as a side note to all this US/Canadian stuff, I am an American who laugh so hard I cried when the Arab journalist chucked his shoes at G.W. If he would have made contact I would have probably pissed myself. I have really grown to love living in Canada and with any luck I will get a PR at some point and be able to further my career here. If not then I will go back to the States in a year when my 3 year permit is up and go flying with the thought that no matter what the situation is that I fly into I know that I will handle the airplane properly and have the skills and abilities to handle myself in a professional and appropriate manner, and at least get the thing sunny side up if I have to because I learned to fly in Canada at a high standard and with more skill than if I had done the cookie cutter only worry about getting from A to B training that goes on South of the border.

Salute to a great (not perfect) system of training that goes on in Canada, and to all the pilots and instructors who make it so.

Hooked

Embraer190 · Post by **Embraer190** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:32 am

aileron wrote:
The sad thing is what flight deck jobs?

There are still some companies hiring up here, like Westjet and Porter, among others. We don't have many but we certainly have more than the U.S.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:18 am

That was an interesting post hooked.

Reminded me of your comments on another thread where you figure I talk out of my arse and you think I'm a " Hot rod "

I have no problem with that but you forgot to answer my question about your DC 3 time, did you get a type rating or just ride in one?

5400AirportRdSouth · Post by **5400AirportRdSouth** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:07 am

In regards to the Aussies and sheep-stirrers, I used to know a few here in Canada working on one-year " working holiday " type visas.

It was explained to me that all the commonwealth countries have a reciprocal WHV program, allowing each others citizens an automatic one-year work visa in any commonwealth country.

The catch was the age limit, I think it is geared more towards youth and they cap you at 26? 30?

Whistler, Banff and Jasper are full of them, they come over to work the chairlift, wait tables, etc, and ski all winter.

E-Flyer · Post by **E-Flyer** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:49 pm

chipmunk wrote:
Nark wrote:Easy way to weed out a Canadian pilot?

Ask to do an LPV approach, hehe.
Easy way to weed out an American pilot?

Ask to do a NDB approach.

More than once during sim training in the US, the instructor tries to throw in one of these to be "mean" and is surprised when we don't even blink.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH !!!!

I actually think the American's will move to asia and middle east - as ironic as that sounds. Unless they want to flip burgers for 6 bucks / hr at billy's burger bistro.

Embraer190 · Post by **Embraer190** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:18 pm

There are too many pilots in the U.S. because of two reasons:

1) It's easy to become a pilot down there.
2) The airforce

Because of those reasons, the wages are going down the loo as well as working conditions. I hope to god this doesn't happen in Canada... oh wait, it's already started.

yycflyguy · Post by **yycflyguy** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:50 pm

Right to work will prevent any foreign national from taking Canadian jobs (yes, there are ways around it). I would argue that the entire race to the bottom began in the US. Regionals paying their boys $19-$24k, lost pension plans, executive greed, LCC unsustainable business plans. There are lots of pilots in the US because they have lots of disposable cash and are pasionate about aviation (ever seen the metal on the ramp at TEB or VNY?). There are also around 10 Americans for every 1 Canuck so you should see relative numbers in the pilot ranks.

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:56 pm

Embraer190 wrote:There are too many pilots in the U.S. because of two reasons:

1) It's easy to become a pilot down there.
2) The airforce

Because of those reasons, the wages are going down the loo as well as working conditions. I hope to god this doesn't happen in Canada... oh wait, it's already started.

You sir, are out to lunch.

Do you know you have to be college educated to a pilot in the Air Force, USMC, US Navy and USCG? You know, like in Top Gun, like on TV?

I can remember in 2004 (not sure if they still do) the CF would take a promising kid of the street and give him wings if he promised to finish school within x-amount of years after getting pinned?

Be sure to come back and let us know how powerful that C152 is once your instructor gets out for the first time.

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:17 pm

I can remember in 2004 (not sure if they still do) the CF would take a promising kid of the street and give him wings if he promised to finish school within x-amount of years after getting pinned?

The Can Forces have switched back to pilots needing a University education. College is not good enough anymore.

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:54 pm

In the states college and University is interchangeable pretty much. Not the big difference as here. As for Narks question they were still doing that program as of a year ago but may have stopped (they change programs from time to time)

Meatservo · Post by **Meatservo** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:20 am

This is what I thought, it's an immigration issue. It makes sense.

Embraer190 · Post by **Embraer190** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:06 am

yycflyguy wrote:Right to work will prevent any foreign national from taking Canadian jobs (yes, there are ways around it). I would argue that the entire race to the bottom began in the US. Regionals paying their boys $19-$24k, lost pension plans, executive greed, LCC unsustainable business plans. There are lots of pilots in the US because they have lots of disposable cash and are pasionate about aviation (ever seen the metal on the ramp at TEB or VNY?). There are also around 10 Americans for every 1 Canuck so you should see relative numbers in the pilot ranks.

This is so true. I actually cannot BELIEVE that pilots are making less than full time grocery store workers. That is OBSCENE and OUTRAGIOUS.

Embraer190 · Post by **Embraer190** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:19 am

Nark wrote: You sir, are out to lunch.

Do you know you have to be college educated to a pilot in the Air Force, USMC, US Navy and USCG? You know, like in Top Gun, like on TV?

Don't get me started on the American education system.

flying4dollars · Post by **flying4dollars** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:40 am

Nark wrote:
Embraer190 wrote:There are too many pilots in the U.S. because of two reasons:

1) It's easy to become a pilot down there.
2) The airforce

Because of those reasons, the wages are going down the loo as well as working conditions. I hope to god this doesn't happen in Canada... oh wait, it's already started.

You sir, are out to lunch.

Do you know you have to be college educated to a pilot in the Air Force, USMC, US Navy and USCG? You know, like in Top Gun, like on TV?

I can remember in 2004 (not sure if they still do) the CF would take a promising kid of the street and give him wings if he promised to finish school within x-amount of years after getting pinned?

Be sure to come back and let us know how powerful that C152 is once your instructor gets out for the first time.

Last time I checked u had to be college educated to be in the CF as well. If you were not, then you'd have to finish it first before you got to fly, but in the mean time you'd be doing RMT stuff. I could be wrong but this is how it was when I inquired in 2006.

Anyways, if you really wanna talk about the quality of our crews, wasn't it US 'college educated top gun pilots' that were responsible for numerous friendly fire accidents?

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:38 am

THere was a program a few years back which Nark is refering to where the Canadian forces would take you (in various roles not just pilots) and start you working with the promise that you would finish your degree on your own time and money before your first tour was up. Where as RMC/ ROTP gives you the degree then starts you on your career training.

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:42 am

flying4dollars wrote: Anyways, if you really wanna talk about the quality of our crews, wasn't it US 'college educated top gun pilots' that were responsible for numerous friendly fire accidents?

Sorry dude, this isn't a debate between CF and the US armed services. Both have great people, both have retards.

This is turning into a debate (I use that term loosely) of civilian pilots between the US and Canada.

190:

Please ask, or state what you think that Canada does that the US doesn't in reference to flight training, rules, procedures etc...

I've had the pleasure of being licensed in both countries. Anyone that has flown in US airspace can probably comment on this too.

If you choose to , please explain to me how the American Collegiate is vastly inferior to the Canadian one?