This is what I sent Swift Jet
Good morning,
I saw your ad on AvCanada. I have well in excess of your requirements and am employed. I was appalled at that you would feel it necessary to offend so many as I quote…
While we have no doubt as to your abilities and experience there are certain positions and types of applicants that we are not looking to hire.
They are:
Anyone without the experience listed above
Retired airline captains
Anyone between jobs
Should the industry equate to you needing someone, I would feel quite sorry for the individual that may be hired by your company as your advertisement is clearly an indication attesting how you would treat people (your greatest resource) in the future.
Please remember,
If you put people first, you will succeed…
Falcon 20
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Falcon 20
Yeh, that really is a hard one to figure out, how about pilots who are between jobs because their former employer went bankrupt?Anyone between jobs
Weird to say the least.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
nimbostratus
- Rank 3
- Posts: 197
- Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 9:08 am
- Location: Calgary
Re: Falcon 20
I agree, the "In between jobs" thing sounds a little off. I can only guess/hope they are referring to pilots just looking for a paycheque until they get recalled to an airline or are planning a quick move to something else.
Nimbo
Nimbo
Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes!
"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.
Give him a mask and he will tell the truth." -- Oscar Wilde
"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.
Give him a mask and he will tell the truth." -- Oscar Wilde
Re: Falcon 20
With the sh*tty salary, no one will stay anyway.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
-
Rubberbiscuit
- Rank 8
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:02 pm
Re: Falcon 20
Good for you. I was surprised when I read that to say the least. One step further and they would have been narrowing down to skin color and or sex.milton01 wrote:This is what I sent Swift Jet
Good morning,
I saw your ad on AvCanada. I have well in excess of your requirements and am employed. I was appalled at that you would feel it necessary to offend so many as I quote…
While we have no doubt as to your abilities and experience there are certain positions and types of applicants that we are not looking to hire.
They are:
Anyone without the experience listed above
Retired airline captains
Anyone between jobs
Should the industry equate to you needing someone, I would feel quite sorry for the individual that may be hired by your company as your advertisement is clearly an indication attesting how you would treat people (your greatest resource) in the future.
Please remember,
If you put people first, you will succeed…
"Nearly all safety regulations are based upon lessons which have been paid for in blood by those who attempted what you are contemplating" Tony Kern
Re: Falcon 20
Last edited by gasper on Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
...PEACE through superior firepower!
Re: Falcon 20
I'm curious where you heard they are required to post a $52,000 bond?
-
mattedfred
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:36 am
-
mattedfred
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:36 am
Re: Falcon 20
EZflyer,
thanks for responding. please clarify whether your employer currently has or will put in place a bond or a promissary note as perhaps some employers do not consider either to be 'paying for training'?
thanks for responding. please clarify whether your employer currently has or will put in place a bond or a promissary note as perhaps some employers do not consider either to be 'paying for training'?
Re: Falcon 20
Last edited by gasper on Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
...PEACE through superior firepower!
Re: Falcon 20
$52k is much higher than the cost of an initial course on a Falcon 20 even with hotels and per diems etc.
Yeeha Jester's dead
Re: Falcon 20
You could probably buy a Falcon 20 for that much in todays market.Noob wrote:$52k is much higher than the cost of an initial course on a Falcon 20 even with hotels and per diems etc.
Re: Falcon 20
Last edited by gasper on Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
...PEACE through superior firepower!
Re: Falcon 20
Gasper, you are way out to lunch on those prices and the way you came up with them.
The last medium jet (non complex) I got a quote on at CAE was initial is $13,000 US and the recurrent was about $7,000 US and that was with very little arguing (no one pays the sticker price for those courses, except suckers and rich arabs). You could probably get lower prices than I quoted given the market conditions lately.
I just did a quick check on Travelocity. $1,000 CAD for airfare from YYZ and 15 days hotel in Dallas. The airfare only is $350. Meal allowance of $75 a day as per the government standard here in Canada (even though many hotels there have a decent breakfast buffet included in the price).
Lets add it up.
Initial - $13,000 US = $16,000 CAD
Recurrent - $7,000 US = $8,500 CAD
Initial Hotel, airfare, and meals = $2,100
Recurrent Hotel, airfare, and meals = $1,000
TC or ACP airfare, hotel and meals = $1,000
Transportation to Simuflite is free from all local hotels (except driver tips).
Total = about $29,000 over 2 years, close to 50% of what you quoted.
I didn't include the training costs for RVSM, Hi-Alt, CFIT, DG, etc. It sounds like some on here think maybe that should also be added to a bond.
Unfortunately a company that had a pay/benefit program in place that would likely cause an employee to look elsewhere in under two years will probably have some kind of agreement/bond in place. If they were at all descent they would at least take half of the risk and have a pro rated agreement for $15,000 over two years, or $8,000 over one year. Or better yet, pay a quality pilot enough that there wasn't a hope in hell that he would leave in the near future.
Anyway, I pray to God that there is no one on here that will pay or agree to a $52,000 bond over two years. If there is someone, call me first, I will get you your training and throw in a 737 Type Rating as a bonus.
p.s. companies that do non mandated sim training every 6 months do not have bonds.
The last medium jet (non complex) I got a quote on at CAE was initial is $13,000 US and the recurrent was about $7,000 US and that was with very little arguing (no one pays the sticker price for those courses, except suckers and rich arabs). You could probably get lower prices than I quoted given the market conditions lately.
I just did a quick check on Travelocity. $1,000 CAD for airfare from YYZ and 15 days hotel in Dallas. The airfare only is $350. Meal allowance of $75 a day as per the government standard here in Canada (even though many hotels there have a decent breakfast buffet included in the price).
Lets add it up.
Initial - $13,000 US = $16,000 CAD
Recurrent - $7,000 US = $8,500 CAD
Initial Hotel, airfare, and meals = $2,100
Recurrent Hotel, airfare, and meals = $1,000
TC or ACP airfare, hotel and meals = $1,000
Transportation to Simuflite is free from all local hotels (except driver tips).
Total = about $29,000 over 2 years, close to 50% of what you quoted.
I didn't include the training costs for RVSM, Hi-Alt, CFIT, DG, etc. It sounds like some on here think maybe that should also be added to a bond.
Unfortunately a company that had a pay/benefit program in place that would likely cause an employee to look elsewhere in under two years will probably have some kind of agreement/bond in place. If they were at all descent they would at least take half of the risk and have a pro rated agreement for $15,000 over two years, or $8,000 over one year. Or better yet, pay a quality pilot enough that there wasn't a hope in hell that he would leave in the near future.
Anyway, I pray to God that there is no one on here that will pay or agree to a $52,000 bond over two years. If there is someone, call me first, I will get you your training and throw in a 737 Type Rating as a bonus.
p.s. companies that do non mandated sim training every 6 months do not have bonds.
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on
Re: Falcon 20
Last edited by gasper on Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
...PEACE through superior firepower!
Re: Falcon 20
It's not a pipe dream for the company to take the risk gasper, for me and many others it is a reality. You see, many people wouldn't sign or pay a god damned thing.
When you say that you and your buddies are happily signing up for $40,000 bonds, then there is obviously not much point in discussing this further with you. You might as well sign up for a million dollars, because there is no hope in hell you are going to leave before your time is up in either case.
But, since I enjoy lively discussions, I will go on to say that your arguments are extremely weak and without merit.
I am pretty sure your buddy at CAE (or any other salesmen) would be considered insane if he gave a rock bottom price when some pilot called up and wanted a ballpark number. Why in hell were you phoning down there anyway? And why in hell am I arguing with you? I have had to arrange training many times and I am quite aware of the costs. It is possible to get prices that are 30-40% off list, especially on older aircraft (and that was before the economic downturn). It is kind of like buying a car (and I am not talking about buying a new Saturn or Toyota) some suckers will pay the sticker price on the window, many will pay less. You sound like a car salesman's dream.
Embassy Suites are one of the more expensive hotels out there, and, as I already explained, just go to Expedia or Travelocity and you will find what I said to be true regarding accommodation and travel costs. At any rate, if you were choosing to pay a bond, why in hell would you stay at an expensive hotel anyway? If you make $65,000 a year and live in YYZ, you cannot afford to stay in the Embassy Suites for 2 weeks, trust me. Stay at the laughable Super 8 and negotiate a $2,000 reduction on your bond. Or if you like big bonds, stay at the Gaylord Texan Hotel and Convention Center (for other peoples info, without a rental car, the Embassy Suites is a very poor hotel choice at DFW north due to being isolated).
As for food, I weigh 250 lbs and enjoy food and drink. I guarantee I can eat and drink you under the table. 24 beers at 7-11 in USA = under $20 (as is a 60 of vodka at any liquor store) If you can't fill your gullet daily with that and the $55 left over, that is your problem. Here is some help
http://www.bigbuck.com/May%2022%20Gaylo ... 202007.pdf
20 Oz porterhouse at a nice restaurant for $30
If you are really hungry go to Texas de Brazil. If you can eat there more than once every 3 days, you are my hero.
By the way, I got my conversion numbers from currency converter xe.com (here is a free tip: credit card companies charge rip off exchange rates)
Universal Currency Converter© Results
Using live mid-market rates.
Live rates at 2009.02.04 22:38:26 UTC
13,000.00 USD = 16,018.53 CAD
United States Dollars Canada Dollars
1 USD = 1.23219 CAD 1 CAD = 0.811560 USD
So to answer your question, yes, I did sharpen my pencil.
So, to be clear, there are no "maybes" here. Unless you choose to pay listed price at CAE or FSI (you seem very free with your money so that is your prerogative), your numbers are still almost double what the actual costs to a company are. And by the way, Ezflyer did comment on the bond figure, and he seemed to indicate that $52,000 was an incredulous number.
The real question is why I am wasting my time posting twice?
When you say that you and your buddies are happily signing up for $40,000 bonds, then there is obviously not much point in discussing this further with you. You might as well sign up for a million dollars, because there is no hope in hell you are going to leave before your time is up in either case.
But, since I enjoy lively discussions, I will go on to say that your arguments are extremely weak and without merit.
I am pretty sure your buddy at CAE (or any other salesmen) would be considered insane if he gave a rock bottom price when some pilot called up and wanted a ballpark number. Why in hell were you phoning down there anyway? And why in hell am I arguing with you? I have had to arrange training many times and I am quite aware of the costs. It is possible to get prices that are 30-40% off list, especially on older aircraft (and that was before the economic downturn). It is kind of like buying a car (and I am not talking about buying a new Saturn or Toyota) some suckers will pay the sticker price on the window, many will pay less. You sound like a car salesman's dream.
Embassy Suites are one of the more expensive hotels out there, and, as I already explained, just go to Expedia or Travelocity and you will find what I said to be true regarding accommodation and travel costs. At any rate, if you were choosing to pay a bond, why in hell would you stay at an expensive hotel anyway? If you make $65,000 a year and live in YYZ, you cannot afford to stay in the Embassy Suites for 2 weeks, trust me. Stay at the laughable Super 8 and negotiate a $2,000 reduction on your bond. Or if you like big bonds, stay at the Gaylord Texan Hotel and Convention Center (for other peoples info, without a rental car, the Embassy Suites is a very poor hotel choice at DFW north due to being isolated).
As for food, I weigh 250 lbs and enjoy food and drink. I guarantee I can eat and drink you under the table. 24 beers at 7-11 in USA = under $20 (as is a 60 of vodka at any liquor store) If you can't fill your gullet daily with that and the $55 left over, that is your problem. Here is some help
http://www.bigbuck.com/May%2022%20Gaylo ... 202007.pdf
20 Oz porterhouse at a nice restaurant for $30
If you are really hungry go to Texas de Brazil. If you can eat there more than once every 3 days, you are my hero.
By the way, I got my conversion numbers from currency converter xe.com (here is a free tip: credit card companies charge rip off exchange rates)
Universal Currency Converter© Results
Using live mid-market rates.
Live rates at 2009.02.04 22:38:26 UTC
13,000.00 USD = 16,018.53 CAD
United States Dollars Canada Dollars
1 USD = 1.23219 CAD 1 CAD = 0.811560 USD
So to answer your question, yes, I did sharpen my pencil.
So, to be clear, there are no "maybes" here. Unless you choose to pay listed price at CAE or FSI (you seem very free with your money so that is your prerogative), your numbers are still almost double what the actual costs to a company are. And by the way, Ezflyer did comment on the bond figure, and he seemed to indicate that $52,000 was an incredulous number.
The real question is why I am wasting my time posting twice?
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on
