Are Hours Everything?
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
Are Hours Everything?
I have done 6 years of university which I have completed a diploma and a degree program. I have a CPL multi IFR however with only 250 hrs. I understand that hiring all over Canada is slow right now but it seems that no matter how much schooling / education / training you have, airlines are only really only interested in how many hours you have. And it seems to come down to who ever has the most hours gets the job. So my question is do airlines recognize degrees at all or are they just interested in keeping their insurance low by hiring guys with several thousand hours. did I waste my time getting a degree to shine up my resume just to become an airline pilot. thanks for your help!
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:36 am
Re: Are Hours Everything?
no offense intended but your degree and diploma will likely not matter to your first few employers. airlines like WJ, ACJ and AC will likely give you more points for it. in other words, it won't help you now but it may help you later.
Re: Are Hours Everything?
Your degree probably will not help you get that first job, or even second or third job but if you make it to the airlines it will definately help...
This has been a very hot debate around here recently.
As for the hours, I think the type of hours is more important than total time. Someone who has alot of multi PIC would be more marketable than someone with more total time but all on single pistons.
Thats just my view on things anyway.
This has been a very hot debate around here recently.
As for the hours, I think the type of hours is more important than total time. Someone who has alot of multi PIC would be more marketable than someone with more total time but all on single pistons.
Thats just my view on things anyway.
-
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2083
- Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:21 am
- Location: The Lake.
Re: Are Hours Everything?
It will definitely help you... in the sense that you may get the job over another fresh commercial pilot. Or in several years when you have 5000 hours, you may get the job over someone with equal time and no degree.
But if what you're asking is say, "Will Jazz hire me over a guy with 2000 hours and no degree?"... well, the answer is no I would have to say.
I know a couple guys who got degrees first... it should eventually help them when they get out of bush flying. Plus, it's always something to fall back on.
I wish I would have finished my degree.
Cheers
But if what you're asking is say, "Will Jazz hire me over a guy with 2000 hours and no degree?"... well, the answer is no I would have to say.
I know a couple guys who got degrees first... it should eventually help them when they get out of bush flying. Plus, it's always something to fall back on.
I wish I would have finished my degree.
Cheers
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:36 am
Re: Are Hours Everything?
each resume i sent out while i was looking for my first flying job was written specifically for the employer that i was applying to. i chose to leave any reference to my aviation college diploma off some of those resumes. i also chose not to wear a suit or tie to many visits to air service offices. i found that many air services wanted the high school graduate, son of a farmer or plumber and not afraid to get hands dirty kind of pilot. it was obvious to me that many were not looking for anyone with a college or university education. my experience was from 1995 so things may have changed drastically since then.
-
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2396
- Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:47 am
- Location: The weather is here, I wish you were beautiful.
Re: Are Hours Everything?
Let me get this straight. You're looking to replace flight experience with time spent in University? There's no pass here, chief. It's cold hard work in the airplane that people want to see. The degree is a solid foundation, but do NOT expect a pass or anyone in Canada to give you an airline seat because of that schooling.
Let's say I decide to jump careers next week to become a transport truck driver. If I walk in there and say "hey boys I have a master's degree, eastbound and down, let's give'r", do you think I am going to get the job? Do you think that University education is going to make me a better truck driver than the guy who has been operating on the Trans Canada for the past 5 years? Perhaps after you establish yourself as a decent driver, you may have a shot at managing that trucking company with that degree. Other than that, don't expect a free pass.
Your best option would be to seek a job pursuant with your flight time and offer the organization a second skill set relevant to your degree. That will set you ahead of those with similar flight times.
Put your head down and work hard.
CIL
(Bachelor of Science & Master of Science)
Let's say I decide to jump careers next week to become a transport truck driver. If I walk in there and say "hey boys I have a master's degree, eastbound and down, let's give'r", do you think I am going to get the job? Do you think that University education is going to make me a better truck driver than the guy who has been operating on the Trans Canada for the past 5 years? Perhaps after you establish yourself as a decent driver, you may have a shot at managing that trucking company with that degree. Other than that, don't expect a free pass.
Your best option would be to seek a job pursuant with your flight time and offer the organization a second skill set relevant to your degree. That will set you ahead of those with similar flight times.
Put your head down and work hard.
CIL
(Bachelor of Science & Master of Science)
Re: Are Hours Everything?
Maybe by "airline", the OP intended on writing Air Operator. I think it's pretty much a given that, except in extreme cases (or in Europe), getting onto an Airline with little more than CPL minimums is a no-go, no matter what else you've done. Heck, even if I WAS hired straight on as a CPL into an airline, I probably wouldn't accept the offer -- You'd be missing out on all the experience, and, frankly speaking, fun flying in between. Sometimes things are meant more for the journey than the destination.Changes in Latitudes wrote:Let me get this straight. You're looking to replace flight experience with time spent in University? There's no pass here, chief. It's cold hard work in the airplane that people want to see. The degree is a solid foundation, but do NOT expect a pass or anyone in Canada to give you an airline seat because of that schooling.
Let's say I decide to jump careers next week to become a transport truck driver. If I walk in there and say "hey boys I have a master's degree, eastbound and down, let's give'r", do you think I am going to get the job? Do you think that University education is going to make me a better truck driver than the guy who has been operating on the Trans Canada for the past 5 years? Perhaps after you establish yourself as a decent driver, you may have a shot at managing that trucking company with that degree. Other than that, don't expect a free pass.
And, well, regardless if the OP was in deed referring to the 'Big Shots' -- I personally would like to know how much you think a University degree will help you in this industry. Seeing as your a M.Sc and a pilot, what are your personal experiences? Do you think your degrees ever gave you an edge, at any time in your career?
Cessna 182 | C-FKLY
-
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2396
- Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:47 am
- Location: The weather is here, I wish you were beautiful.
Re: Are Hours Everything?
The degrees have offered me a good backup in aviation should my current job ever cease to exist. I'd say the education was of little importance until I neared around 1000 hours. Some people automatically assumed that as a low-time pilot with a Master's degree, I either thought I deserved more opportunity or actually thought I was better than my counterparts. Not only did I have to work just as hard as any low-time pilot would, but I also had to make sure that I never presented a false sense of entitlement or superiority to my colleagues or to myself. When someone has a different background than you, its easier to call out their shortcoming due to that diversity. In the end, my hands got just as dirty, my shifts were just as long, and my pay was just as low as my fellow aviators.C-FKLY wrote: Seeing as your a M.Sc and a pilot, what are your personal experiences? Do you think your degrees ever gave you an edge, at any time in your career?
However, once my flight time started to get above 1000 hours, I began to observe a greater interest in my background and education. I found I was getting more returned calls when I would apply for a flying job because I would offer to fulfill other roles in the organization pertinent to my experience and education (never for free of course) plus I finally had a bit of experience to back it up with.
I never stated in my job applications that I was a better pilot for my education; I would merely state that I could prove to be a more versatile asset to the organization in the coming years if given the opportunity. Anyway, that has been my approach to the education question. Believe me, it has been modified through trial and error throughout the last decade, but is currently serving my career well.
Re: Are Hours Everything?
Hi
My advise would be, to get your first job, do not even mention you have a degree, then, once you have the experience you may want to apply for the airlines, then you put all your assets in your resume.
I have a degree and a master degree but I didn't include my university background in my resume to get the job I have today. In my opinion many third level operators are affraid to hire highly educated pilots, to be honest I don't understand why but it seems to be the rule.
And I do agree that having a degree don't make me a better pilot, however, having an extra education it gives you more alternatives, what happens if you loose your medical tomorrow?
Thanks,
Mustang06
My advise would be, to get your first job, do not even mention you have a degree, then, once you have the experience you may want to apply for the airlines, then you put all your assets in your resume.
I have a degree and a master degree but I didn't include my university background in my resume to get the job I have today. In my opinion many third level operators are affraid to hire highly educated pilots, to be honest I don't understand why but it seems to be the rule.
And I do agree that having a degree don't make me a better pilot, however, having an extra education it gives you more alternatives, what happens if you loose your medical tomorrow?
Thanks,
Mustang06
Fly baby fly!!!
- F/O Crunch
- Rank 3
- Posts: 156
- Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:02 pm
- Location: The Jolly Roger
Re: Are Hours Everything?
You probably had a great time in school earning that degree, and now enjoying yourself working on a career in flying. That education may not be essential but certainly won't hurt.inbound wrote:did I waste my time getting a degree to shine up my resume just to become an airline pilot.
I don't think you've got anything to worry about......
Jaaaaaaaayyyyzzzuuuzzz
Sure is hot in these Rhinos
-
- Rank Moderator
- Posts: 3592
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:29 am
- Location: The Frozen North
- Contact:
Re: Are Hours Everything?
At your level, yes. Did nobody at the outset mention that pesky detail?Are Hours Everything?
I can see the chief pilot at Dinosoar Pelvis Air Service now.... "I can't believe these guys can be such Boneheads! For half a buck, I'd fire them all and hire the next 4 kids with Managerial Finance B" Oh, sorry, I'm awake now.
Where the degree will come in is about 4500 hours down the road. TC invents something new, and mandates it. Used to be CRM, last year is was SMS... TEM, CRMI, ther'll be something and everybody who works in the office is gonna stand there saying Huh? What? Who? And that will be the moment yo can stand up and say, I can set that up and run it.
How many training shops offer SMS manager training? In reality, perhaps 3 small consultancies. How many 703, 704 shops have realistically, a single clue about running an SMS program? Well, back in the day, CRM was like that.
Running a training department, developing GS materials, an ops website for a company... none of the run of the mill drivers whose mains needs are based on hours, beer, and companionship are gonna be able to do any more than a half-arsed job of any of the above. That's when your degree will pay.
WestJet wants a presentation now for interviews. This sort of thing should be a natural for you.
Starting out is hard. It's meant to be. Didn't your parents have to walk ten miles to school through blizzards, up hill both ways....?
It gets better. Honest. Sometimes.
-
- Rank 8
- Posts: 769
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 2:00 pm
Re: Are Hours Everything?
I haven't read the previous responses, so this is probably a repost.
In the beginning, hours are pretty much everything. You need to show that you have been able to survive flying a plane for their minmum requirements. They must also percieve that there is nothing wrong with your judgement and personality, and the vibe they get from you is all they have to go on.
Later, your reputation is everything. If they don't know you already, they will probably know the people you have worked for. Don't screw anyone, and try not to get into employment situations which have the potential to get sketchy in the first place. The employer probably already trusts you enough with his machine to let you start, but the hours will still be needed to satisfy insurance and contract requirements from clients.
I haven't been into the side of the industry which puts a massive value on a degree. I'm a bush pilot, maybe it's somewhat different for others, maybe not. I have always dealt with small business owners, and they tend to look at you as an individual. They usually have a simple set of criteria: that you can fly with skill, have sound and reasonable judgement, and that you are personable. People like that will almost certainly value experience over formal education. Perhaps the more bureaucratic nature of HR departments at large opertaions will assign the latter a higher value, but you're still not getting that job without hours. All other things being equal, you may outshine your counterpart of the same experience by having a degree. But your peer who has several years more experience may be better off.
In the beginning, hours are pretty much everything. You need to show that you have been able to survive flying a plane for their minmum requirements. They must also percieve that there is nothing wrong with your judgement and personality, and the vibe they get from you is all they have to go on.
Later, your reputation is everything. If they don't know you already, they will probably know the people you have worked for. Don't screw anyone, and try not to get into employment situations which have the potential to get sketchy in the first place. The employer probably already trusts you enough with his machine to let you start, but the hours will still be needed to satisfy insurance and contract requirements from clients.
I haven't been into the side of the industry which puts a massive value on a degree. I'm a bush pilot, maybe it's somewhat different for others, maybe not. I have always dealt with small business owners, and they tend to look at you as an individual. They usually have a simple set of criteria: that you can fly with skill, have sound and reasonable judgement, and that you are personable. People like that will almost certainly value experience over formal education. Perhaps the more bureaucratic nature of HR departments at large opertaions will assign the latter a higher value, but you're still not getting that job without hours. All other things being equal, you may outshine your counterpart of the same experience by having a degree. But your peer who has several years more experience may be better off.