take off briefing

[scopiton]

what is your take off briefing composed of ?

do you think ditching in the hudson was an option included in the briefing: i.e. : "if we have an engine failure we declare an emergency and we come back to land, if we have a complete engine failure we'll ditch on the hudson.. "
do you briefe your options and choices or your procedures ?
thanks

[Chaffey]

take off briefing, whats that?! JJ

just what to do if below 1000' or after 1000' Reminder of I have contol, you have control

[philknight29]

When briefing a departure during my Instrument Rating in El Cajon, CA. If we were still VMC I'd continue straight ahead, between the two hills and fly into Montgomery Field. Purely because it was easier to fly a straight line, clean the aircraft up, cancel IFR and land, than dealing with flying around the other mountain at the end of the runway.

That was my thinking and the Instructors liked it because it was different from what others tried, it cut out the need for 4 turns in the circuit on one engine and we had the ILS at Montgomery if we needed it for guidance.

If I was operating out of LGA in a 320 I don't think ditching in the Hudson would have come up in a Briefing.

[TTJJ]

It would never come up.

The briefing is designed to help you NOT crash into something should you lose an engine.

It is not to decide WHERE to crash should you lose all engines.

[767]

Below, i copied and pasted the takeoff breifing which i use with my students. It is for cessna 172. for other aircraft, speeds and other things may vary.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TAKEOFF BRIEFING (BEFORE STARTING ENGINE)

A) Departure runway: ___

B) Type of departure: (IFR or VFR)

C) Type of Takeoff: (Normal, short, soft, etc.)

D) Rotation Speed: usually 55KIAS normal t/o (cessna 172)

E) Takeoff rejection point: Pick a point down the runway (usually the first half of the runway) where if not airborne, you will reject takeoff.

F) Procedure after takeoff. (Eg. Decide NOW if you will be departing the circuit left or right hand turn out, or if you will stay in the circuit. If staying in the circuit, verify circuit pattern so you don’t turn the wrong way on crosswind leg.

G) Emergency Procedures: (POH SECTION 3)

Engine Failure during takeoff roll

“I will do the following”:

1. THROTTLE – IDLE
2. BRAKES – APPLY
3. OPEN THE CHECKLIST

Engine failure immediately after takeoff

“I will do the following”:

1. AIRSPEED – 65 KIAS (FLAPS UP), 60 KIAS (FLAPS DOWN)
2. LAND STRAIGHT AHEAD- NO TURNS MORE THAN 30 DEG IN DIRECTION TO AVOID OBSTACLES. WILL NOT TURN BACK.
3. IF TIME PERMITS, OPEN THE CHECKLIST. (WON’T HAPPEN THOUGH!!)

Engine failure during circuit

“I will do the following”:

1. CARB HEAT – HOT
2. AIRSPEED – 65 KIAS (FLAPS UP) 60 KIAS (FLAPS DOWN)
3. GLIDE TO RUNWAY OF MY CHOICE.
4. DECLARE EMERGENCY.

Emergency in the circuit other than engine failure

“I will do the following”:

1. POH memory items complete.
2. Decide the runway I want to land on and declare emergency if necessary.
3. If time permits, finish remaining checklist items.

Engine failure or engine fire during flight

“I will follow the standard procedures for a forced landing, as taught by my instructor in exercise 22, forced approach. Don’t forget about the POH memory items for engine fire.”

All other emergencies during flight other than engine failure or engine fire in flight

“I will do the following”:

1. FOLLOW POH MEMORY ITEMS depending on type of emergency.
2. FIND NEAREST SUITABLE AIRPORT, TURN TOWARDS IT AND PLAN THE APPROACH (CFS, VNC, ETC)
3. DECLARE EMERGENCY IF REQUIRED.
4. TIME PERMITTING, FINISH REMAINDER OF CHECKLIST.

* Close the briefing with asking the co pilot, flight instructor, or examiner as the case may be, if they have any questions.

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[BTD]

The above is a ridiculously long t/o briefing.

Keep the take-off brief short and to the point and related to the take-off. I am not sure why you are briefing emergencies you would experience in the practice area or circuit. If you are going to brief for other emergencies or review them, do it before the engine has started or in the briefing room.

With so much in the briefing, what is really important will get all jumbled up.

Here is the one we use in a 704 19 seat 2 crew aircraft. I'm an F/O so this is how I brief it.

If we have an emergency or engine failure prior to V1, Abort Abort Abort will be called by either of us. I'll bring the aircraft to a stop on the runway, you advise ATC, and I'll intiate an Evacutation on your call if necessary.

If we have an emercency after V1 the take-off will be continued, if an engine failure, set max power, gear up with positive rate, I'll climb V2 to 400ft and level off, we will Identify, verify and pull appropriate stop and feather, accelerate to V2+5kts flaps up and climb Vyse to (whatever safe alt is) complete After take-off checks, adivse ATC, brief the passengers, and return for the ILS/visual rwy XX.

Keep in mind for us, the brief is the same every time with different speeds as required, so this is a review of the procedure just before we do it, to make sure we are co-ordinated.

This brief is just basically 2 parts. Prior to V1 and after V1. Everything else is just a review so we can work efficiently as a team. No matter who is flying. Keep it simple.

BTD

Editted to add: Speeds bugs and power settings etc are reviewed and set prior to the actual brief.

[Doc]

RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!!!!

PUT THE SPURS TO HER!!!!

YA SCARED YET???

[mattedfred]

767, do you state your briefing before you start the engine or while you are holding short of the active runway?

[767]

767, do you state your briefing before you start the engine or while you are holding short of the active runway?

if you scroll up, read the title as you may have missed it.

"TAKEOFF BRIEFING (BEFORE STARTING ENGINE)" (briefing is done while parked on ramp, it follows after passenger briefing)

-- the student states it, not me.. i assign it as homework from time to time (depending on student experience), so they know most of it before they come for a lesson.

If takeoff conditions change then i ask for a new one. It does not take a long time to get through it, the most it took is 30-40 secs provided the homework is done. It is also done in the pre flight breifing.

The above is a ridiculously long t/o briefing.

It seems long if your reading it for the first time. By continous practice and experience, it will get shorter and shorter. As far as getting everything getting jumbled up, well one of the many purposes of instructing is to test the student. From time to time, immediately after takeoff, i would ask the student what they should do now if the engine quit... when going to and from practice area, i keep them busy by reffering back to the plan they made before takeoff. So i dont see whats the jumble mumble about....

[BTD]

It seems long if your reading it for the first time. By continous practice and experience, it will get shorter and shorter. As far as getting everything getting jumbled up, well one of the many purposes of instructing is to test the student. From time to time, immediately after takeoff, i would ask the student what they should do now if the engine quit... when going to and from practice area, i keep them busy by reffering back to the plan they made before takeoff. So i dont see whats the jumble mumble about....

I understand the purpose of instructing. I instructed for 2 years. I stand by my first post, that a take-off brief needs to be short and to the point and related to the take-off. I agree with the first portion of your post about type of take-off etc. The rest though is a pre-flight brief/review.

Take-off briefs are given because there is little time to evalutate the situation and you need a plan of action that you can execute. IMO An engine failure at 3000 ft out in the practice area need not be reviewed shortly before take-off 1. because it is not the task at hand and 2. because you have time to evaluate the situation.

You could shorten your brief up quite a bit by saying
If I have any emergency at any time, ever I will:
1) Complete the checklists as per the POH
2) Do what my instructor taught me.

What you are talking about is a pre flight brief and good stuff to review. But it isn't a Take-off brief.

BTD

[AuxBatOn]

There is no way you can identify all the possible scenarios in a Take Off Brief. Keep it simple.

-Before abort speed
-After abort speed, but before I can turn back
-After I can turn back

That's for a single engine, of course...

E.G.:

"This is gonna be a pairs/stream take off. Rotation speed is 122 kts. Any emergency before the HUD uncages at 75 kts, I'll abort and call "Callsign XX Aborting" on the left radio for everything but Skid and Avbit caption. Any major emergency before VStop/Rotation (depending which one is slower), I'll abort and call "Callsign XX Aborting" on the left radio. Any emergency involving a major loss of trust to the point I can't maintain level flight after Vstop/Rotation, I'll eject. You go on the second E, I go on the third E. Cut off speed for a turn back is 300 kts. Any other emergency, I climb and assess. Questions?"

Short, and easy. Don't need to covert every possible scenarios. Just the ones you don't have time to assess.

[767]

Im curious, are you guys referring to airline ops? If so, I agree that it should be short and up to the point. I just want to make sure with you that the takeoff briefing I stated above is NOT for airline ops, its for the student who is working on their ppl/cpl license. For the new student who is getting ready for the first solo, or flight test, and so on.. in my opinion he/she needs to know as much as possible well in advance. The more they know, the better.

Because my t/o breifing seems to be so long, this is one of the reasons why I dont ask for a takeoff brief at the runway, instead I ask for it before engine start on the ramp. However, I still think its not too long.

[AuxBatOn]

Im curious, are you guys referring to airline ops? If so, I agree that it should be short and up to the point. I just want to make sure with you that the takeoff briefing I stated above is NOT for airline ops, its for the student who is working on their ppl/cpl license. For the new student who is getting ready for the first solo, or flight test, and so on.. in my opinion he/she needs to know as much as possible well in advance. The more they know, the better.

Because my t/o breifing seems to be so long, this is one of the reasons why I dont ask for a takeoff brief at the runway, instead I ask for it before engine start on the ramp. However, I still think its not too long.

The brief I gave you is pretty standard for all CF Student Pilots (Harvard II/Hawk anyways). So, it would be equivalent to a CPL Training.

I think there are a few problems with your brief. It is a personnal opinion, but it seems I'm not the only one. I'll explain :

TAKEOFF BRIEFING (BEFORE STARTING ENGINE) I think it should be done as late as possible before take off. That way, you have the actual current conditions. It should really take 20 seconds to do and it's easy to do it on the roll.

A) Departure runway: You may not know before start what runway you'll depart from.

B) Type of departure: Yup weather could be a factor in the decision making process.

C) Type of Takeoff: Sure, good reminder.

D) Rotation Speed: usually 55KIAS normal See C)

E) Takeoff rejection point: Pick a point down the runway (usually the first half of the runway) where if not airborne, you will reject takeoff. I would pick a speed. It may not be an issue now, but at later stages, the runway may not be long enough for them to abort at all time before rotation speed. It also transfers into the multi world with V1.

F) Procedure after takeoff. (Eg. Decide NOW if you will be departing the circuit left or right hand turn out, or if you will stay in the circuit. If staying in the circuit, verify circuit pattern so you don’t turn the wrong way on crosswind leg. That should be decided well before you step into the plane

G) Emergency Procedures: (POH SECTION 3) [...] There is no point in having him regurgitate the memory items. You can easily see if he did his homeworks by handing an empty sheet and asking him to write them down from memory, before even briefing. Doing it before take off doesn't do any good to your decision making. That part should be dedicated to in which case I'll come back, in which case I'll try to land straight ahead, what is my abort cut off, etc. Not on the memory items. After all, the Emergency take-off brief is your decision making process. You do it before it happensé. On take off, you're faily busy and you don't have much time to analyse and make that decision. It's not about proving yourself (or your instructor) that you memorized the bold figures. They should be memorized well before that time.

* Close the briefing with asking the co pilot, flight instructor, or examiner as the case may be, if they have any questions. Sure. When an other pilot in on-board, it's important to make sure he understands what will be going on if that actually happens. I even ask myself if I have questions when I fly solo.

If I was you, my take off brief would be :

"This is a normal VFR take off, rotation speed is 55 kts. Any emergency before rotation, I'll abort. Any loss of power to the point I can't maintain level flight, I'll continue straight ahead and pick a surface to land on using all available power. Cut off altitude for a Forced Landing on the airport is XXXX', questions?"

You cover all 3 phases of take off IMHO:

-Phase 1 is when you can abort safely
-Phase 2 is you can't really come back and you can't abort. Worst place to be, really
-Phase 3 is when you have sufficient energy to come back for a Forced Landing on the field.

No need to go in extreme detail with each single emergency scenario.

You're saying you're not teaching Airline Pilots. Some of your CPL students will make it there one day. Why not teach them good habbits from day 1?

[E-Flyer]

There's no need to memorize a take off briefing;

tell your student or instructor what it is that you're going to do.

If you just memorize a line, I bet you won't even do half of it. At least, when you say what you're going to do, you're running through what you have on top of your head. Hopefully, after proper practice and understanding the fundamentals of flight, you put the right thoughts into place when you tell your other one what it is you'll be doing.

[BTD]

AuxBatOn:

I agree with almost everything you said. However, in the Flight test guide for Private/Commercial Short field take-offs and soft, they want you to specify a go/no go point.

B.1 Short-Field Takeoff

Performance Criteria

Assessment will be based on the candidate’s ability to:

c. specify a GO/NO GO decision point to the examiner

767:

The intial poster didn't specify what type of operation they were discussing, however, they did relate it too the airline operation, thats why my first post I gave a rough example of what my company uses for a 704 operation.

I have to reiterate my point from the earlier posts. Short and to the point and related to take-off. Especially for new students coming up to and shortly after their solos. You can review in the briefing room, or ask prior to engine start what they will do in a multitude of situations, and thats okay. But when you get to the take-off brief it needs to be what will happen on take-off, similar to what AuxbatOn said.

This is an example of something like what I used as did many others when instructing and flying on my own. We used 1000 feet for our decision to return back the field because the airplane dropped like a rock (about 1000-1200 feet per min) with an engine failure but it will be aircraft and experience dependent.

This will be a normal take off runway XX. I'll set max power confirm the gauges green, airspeed alive and rotate at 57 kts. If we are not airborne by the XX I'll reject the take-off.
If we have an engine failure after take-off below 1000 feet the landing will be straight ahead with gentle turns to avoid obstacles.
If we have an engine failure after take-off above 1000 feet or we are established in the crosswind turn we will return for the field.
Other than that it will be a normal departure from the circuit right turn out heading northbound.

(you may choose to run through the procedure for the engine failure as well, but even that would be limited to, pull the throttle idle, carb heat on [if required] and advise atc)

There is nothing wrong with quizzing students either. I always liked the "what are you doing to do now" question as you said earlier. My favorite time to use it was when the student realized they weren't going to make the field they selected on their forced approach. Most think you are just going to let them overshoot and try again. I always liked "okay so you missed that field, now where are we going to land"

BTD

[Doc]

Real world check lists should be short and sweet.

Landing check for YYB should include the comment.."Lets try and get her stopped before the end..."

Missed approach checklist for YIV...."Max power, flaps up, gear up...mind the trees...."

Take off form God's Lake etc...."Okay, one of us should fly this thing if anything goes wrong..."

Any approach with a fair amount of ice on the airframe...."Minimum airspeed for ice is xxxkts.....keep the speed up....lets not use full flaps...Okay?.."

THINK

[MichaelP]

To me the Takeoff briefing is a means by which the brain is primed to act in the event of...
I hear some long ones...
But ultimately in our little aeroplanes there's one thing above all others we want to prevent and that is turning back at too low a level.

I call it the "Rabbit Brain", The car comes down the road, the rabbit is scared, he lives on the other side of the road and so he runs across it and is killed by the car.
Our rabbit brain says the runway is behind us and so if the engine quits we turn back, the aeroplane turning so steeply pulling it around and then it departs on a wing into a spin and we die....

So for single engine:

"If the engine fails on the runway I'll close the throttle and stop straight ahead."
"If the engine fails afer takeoff with sufficient runway remaining I'll close the throttle and land straight ahead."

Now the rabbit brain one:

"If the engine fails after takeoff with insufficient runway remaining, I'll lower the nose, '60 knots', and pick a landing place within 45 degrees either side of the nose."
"If altitude permits, I'll attempt to rectify the problem".

This briefing is not for anyone else, it is for the pilot him/her self to prime the mind to act accordingly.

Before every takeoff we should imagine it. We should always try to know what is beyond the end of any runway we depart and therefore plan for the best place to land or even crash afterwards.
It's the same as any phase of flight, spacial orientation, anticipating the future, staying ahead of the aeroplane.

[767]

Well first of all thanks for your input. I respect all your opinions.

Not to make my t/o breif even longer, this is a note i added at the end of my breifing. It explains to the "student" what to do in the event takeoff conditions change. And no, it is not in addition to the t/o breifing (in the airplane). And keep in mind, it is solely for single pilot operation, not multi crew.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE:

You might have to re-brief if conditions change during taxing, such as runway change / airspace closure etc (for example, you may have planned for takeoff on runway 30, but while taxing the winds might have started favoring runway 04).

If this is the case, ALWAYS HOLD POSITION when re-briefing your self. Try not to delay aircraft that are taxing behind you, be quick and re-brief. If possible, make room for other aircraft so they can pass by you while you re-brief yourself. During single pilot operations, never taxi at the same time while briefing because you might accidentally cross active runways, or collide with parked aircraft possibly because your attention might be in the re-briefing. If you are at the runway hold short line when a re-briefing is required, it is ok if other aircraft have wait behind you, but try to be quick to avoid unneccessary delays. NEVER ATTEMPT A TAKEOFF WITHOUT A “PLAN”. Your “plan” will help you make quick and effective decisions when you have to deal with a takeoff or an in-flight emergency, and it will also help you stay ahead of the airplane after takeoff and in flight.

And most importantly, the takeoff briefing isn’t just to show the examiner / instructor how good you are. You must have it all in mind until you land safely at your destination. I will be testing you at different phases of flight, so make sure you know it!!

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[Doc]

767....it's a take off in a 172....not a shuttle launch. Your original "brief" was anything but. Two mags, carb heat cold, mixture rich....off you go. Really.

A major contributing factor in aircraft accidents is the pilot is too fucken busy reciting the twenty third psalm to remember to FLY the airplane. Ever heard of the KISS theory? You're not using it.

[bbb]

KISS is most important.
Also - the actual takeoff briefing should be done right before departure (holding short before receiving takeoff clearance at controlled airport, or when ready to depart/traffic permits uncontrolled). Our brains tend to lose stuff at a fast rate, so what you just went over is more likely to stick when you need it than something that was said in huge detail and great length before you got the aircraft started, through the checklist, and to the runway threshold.
Its no coincidence that folks are all suggesting to simplify and do the actual "takeoff briefing" right before actual takeoff.
Type of takeoff (normal, short soft), rotate/reject speed (and spot if necessary), engine failure below xxxft (pick your elevation, 1,000ft is common) maintain xx speed, we will land straight ahead, above xxxft, we will..... Any questions (if instructor/examiner or passenger aboard)
All this other stuff can confuse the brain, take forever to recite, and clouds the issue of FLY the damn airplane (glide speed!) back to the ground! Far better to remind yourself of the speed at which you're going to depart this earth, and should the aircraft decide it'd rather come back sooner than later, the speed at which you're going to return to the earth IN CONTROL of said aircraft. Also STRAIGHT AHEAD - our eyes see about 30 degrees either side of centre, and perceive this as STRAIGHT AHEAD, other than maybe stating NO TURNS, get rid of the "degrees either side.."
Again, KISS principle, and the timing of the briefing are most important.
Hope this helps.

[MichaelP]

We have to be careful about the rotate speed...
In these little aeroplanes the ASI is way behind the actual on the takeoff roll, and the rotate speed [50 knots is common] is really meaningless in most small single engine aeroplanes.
Soft or short field we often are airborne before we reach the published 'rotate' speed.

I hate to see pilots pegging the nosewheel on the ground with the risk of shimmy or worse when we should keep it light.
These are not large multi engine aircraft with Vmcg these are natural flying machines.

Then I hear airspeed active! Okay it should be in your scan,but there's a lot of other things we should pay attention to too.
OK so a lot of people are wannabe airline pilots and wish to treat the 152 like the 747... I don't mind too much until we start flaring at 60 feet or more but the most important thing is we recognise when things are not going to plan...

AND sometimes you've got to fly!

The light twin had been inspected by the pilots.
They went in for a coffee.
The mechanic noticed it had been left with the pitot covers off and so he put them on.
Shortly afterwards, rocketing down the runway the airspeed was not alive
So they closed the throttles, hit the brakes, went off the end of the runway and bust a wheel.

In any little aeroplane we fly we should be able to fly attitude and power without reference to the airspeed indicator.
If you pick up a bug in the pitot after 'rotating' do you continue with the takeoff or not?

One of the most important skills an airborne pilot must have is AWARENESS.

[bbb]

Michael P
agree somewhat about the "rotate/reject speed", but it should be mentioned I feel in the briefing - glancing at the airspeed indicator to see as the aircraft starts to "feel" like its ready to fly is a confirmation that things are proceeding normally. As a student pilot, it is a simple tool to help them get that experience that shows them all the other indicators of "normal" and when the aircraft should be flying. And definitely not have them holding the aircraft on the runway just because that speed hasn't been reached!
As for the bug scenario, for heavens sake, if there is tonnes of runway left, land. If not, it becomes a question of safer to make it around the circuit without the benefit of the airspeed indicator (flying by power settings and attitude), this should be able to be done, but if the student (I only say student because by the time a Private Pilot license is earned, the person better be able to do it!) is still really new, and nervous, is it better to have them off the end of the runway at below say 80-100 or potentially stalling and spinning in from an altitude? tough call some will say.
Common sense seems to be lacking in instruction and operations these days.
Anyway, interesting to see how much extraneous (sp?) info is blabbed on a takeoff briefing!

[MichaelP]

If you pick up a bug in the pitot after 'rotating' do you continue with the takeoff or not?

bbb There you go... I asked the question, and the answer depends on circumstance.
Every takeoff, in fact every phase of flight, should have its consideration based on circumstance.
And the circumstance is realised from AWARENESS.

As for the solo student on the go/no go decision.
I usually do a session of circuits with each student I fly with, with the ASI covered.
Is the student safe to go solo if with a bug in the pitot down wind he/she does not recognise the fact that even with the nose going down like a Stuka the airspeed is not rising as it should!
Need the student dive into the ground?

[Hedley]

I'm not sure anybody cares, but ...

1) Attitude + power = performance. 10 degrees nose up
and throttles all the way forward, you're probably going to
climb.

2) A GPS gives you groundspeed, in addition to many other
handy pieces of data. A tiny bit of knowledge about the
wind, plus your GPS groundspeed, and you're in the ballpark
for airspeed.

As I have mentioned before, it is quite possible to fly an
aircraft under the hood, using only the emulated panel
page in an economical G196 - no need for any flight
instruments, at all.

So please, there is no need to panic, or crash, when
the pitot and/or static system craps out. Over the decades
I have had both fail on me more than once, and I never
saw the need to crash afterwards.

[gustind]

How about a full breifing before engine start and a shorter take-off review holding at the line. You don't lose any time with the engines on sitting in the plane, and the review would be there if case anything changed and serves as a small reminder.

My breifings:
It will be a normal take-off off of runway 32 with a crosswind from the right, rotate at 55 climb out at 74. Right hand circuit is in effect at 1500ft (or depart the circuit to the south-west with enroute climb at 85 to 2400ft (or w/e)). In the event of a problem affecting flight safety while on the runway, I will retard the throttle, apply max brake and reject. In the case of an engine failure on t/o I will establish best glide and choose a suitable landing site ahead.

Think that covers everything. The review would be the first part all over again except this time you re-evaluate the situation and state any changes to your original plan.

My $0.02