Granny Gas

[Doc]

The subject of "granny gas" kind of took over an earlier thread.

There seems to be some confusion over the term "granny gas". It is the gas on the aircraft, above, and beyond the legal required gas to do the mission. In remote areas, pilots have (in the past, right Cat?) been known to have a wee bit extra in the tanks for "mom and the kids"...could be 45 minutes "extra" that never found it's way on the load sheets. This was VERY common practice.

Now, in these enlightened days, with GPS, really good weather reporting etc. the need for "granny gas" has diminished to a point that it's simply not a requirement. Your total required fuel, plus the load should be your total all up weight. And this MUST fall within the aircraft's operating envelope. ie. if you feel you must have an extra hour of petrol in the tanks, you must reduce your load by that amount.

[Cat Driver]

And this MUST fall within the aircraft's operating envelope. ie. if you feel you must have an extra hour of petrol in the tanks, you must reduce your load by that amount.

The very fact that this subject would be under discussion says a lot for commercial aviation.

When I read the statement that a 748 has lots of power for granny gas I was rather surprised that anyone flying an airplane of that size would think that way.

What happens when you take the pilot out of the bush, can you get the bush mentality out of the pilot?

I would like to be on the selection board of an airline and interview some of these pilots.

[snaproll20]

Yeah, Doc

It's called 'contingency' fuel now.

If the stories are true about airline pressure (and they probably are)
the pilots seemingly have no recourse such as SMS. Therefore, financial concerns outweigh SMS and it does not work in true practice.
Maybe it is 'safe' to land with 46 minutes of fuel remaining? Thirty minutes unexpected holding for take-off and then unplanned headwinds will certainly increase the risk factor.
If a Canadian carrier has a fuel-related accident, Bill C-7 (so I understand) will provide third party secrecy if crews had complained under SMS. The public will be told they will have no access to records. I think that is what we are seeing in the U.S., the obvious complaining to the media so it is out there in public domain and cannot be covered up. Still, maybe it is union hype. What a mess aviation is becoming!!!!
But, get ready, when fuel spirals upward again, all bets are off.

[Fatass]

I can't believe nobodies pointed this out in either "Granny Gas" discussion. There is nothing wrong with taking fuel when you want it. Just take less Fu$king freight! It's the cost of business.

[Strega]

In a perfect world, with GPS and modern weather reporting doo-dads, and so on.. What happens if you develop a fuel leak?

[Doc]

In a perfect world, with GPS and modern weather reporting doo-dads, and so on.. What happens if you develop a fuel leak?

You can't plan for everything that "might" happen. Like flying a turbine at 3500 feet on a 200 nm leg to "protest". Otherwise, why not fill the tanks, leave the freight on the hangar floor, and just fly around?

[Strega]

Im certain somone has done what you mention doc! (leave the freight in the hangar)

At least from the sounds of things, the pilots at Wasaya have got the attention of the "management"

What would you have suggested doc? write a letter?

[Just another canuck]

Here's a question for the Wasaya freight guys: Wasaya took the pressurization out of the Hawkers (maybe some have it??) so they could put in more freight. But this now requires them to fly at lower altitudes, therefore burning a substantial amount of fuel in comparison. How is it they thought this was a good idea?... or do they use the same fuel burn in a pressurized and non-pressurized Hawker?

[Doc]

Im certain somone has done what you mention doc! (leave the freight in the hangar)

At least from the sounds of things, the pilots at Wasaya have got the attention of the "management"

What would you have suggested doc? write a letter?

To be honest, I have no clue. My dealings with this company's management turkeys, was less than successful. They were total dinks, hated pilots, and were totally on their own agenda. I had thought they might have improved. I was wrong. I can think of one person in particular, that's still there, that I found to be nothing more than a bum boy. They have a couple of good guys, NW and the 'stache, when he's not on a golf course on some south Pacific island.
The CP is a decent guy, but I don't know how much power he has over the problem.

This is my opinion as a poster...not a mod on this site.

[Doc]

Here's a question for the Wasaya freight guys: Wasaya took the pressurization out of the Hawkers (maybe some have it??) so they could put in more freight. But this now requires them to fly at lower altitudes, therefore burning a substantial amount of fuel in comparison. How is it they thought this was a good idea?... or do they use the same fuel burn in a pressurized and non-pressurized Hawker?

Most of their legs are short enough, there's not a huge difference. We used to fly legs like Churchill to Baker Lake.....they don't do that any more.

That, and they sold their pressurized big door to a company overseas. And rolled the other into a ball in Kasabonica.

[square]

I take an hour reserve wherever I'm going, cause.. what if I actually need to USE my reserve? With only a half hour reserve onboard I may then end up landing with only what, 5 minutes left? Not cool!

I do put it on my W&B though, my company doesn't mind.

[flyinthebug]

I can't believe nobodies pointed this out in either "Granny Gas" discussion. There is nothing wrong with taking fuel when you want it. Just take less Fu$king freight! It's the cost of business.

And I cant believe the way your words are being ignored fatass? What happened to the old idea of trading freight for fuel? If your too heavy.. leave some freight behind!! Take the gas, forget the freight. If it doesnt get done today no worries, it will get done tomorrow. The pop & chips will get there.. Maybe a day or even two late BUT everyone will be alive and isnt that the point of this thread? Leave 200lbs of freight behind and take the fuel! It really is that simple. Ive HELPED crews unload freight in order to take more gas. Am I the only manager that did that? I doubt it, even on 703/704 level.

Doc, FYI.. NW has left Wasaya. He walked out the door about a month after I did. When PD left, the place took a hard left turn. NW is a good guy and truly tried for the flight crews.. His only problem was his lack of actual understanding of flying. Last I heard he emailed me from Africa and was Ops Mgr for Service Aero I believe? He may be back by now. They needed him to speak french and he couldnt so he was gonna be coming home.

Anyways, for the newer guys starting out.. Challenge your management if they wont let you unload freight for fuel. I wonder if this would be a true test for our newly implemented SMS? I wonder what TCCA will do to stand behind pilots that refuse to fly over gross? See, SMS is great.. as long as its being overseen by the regulator. When they leave it to the lunatics to run their own asylum..just watch and see how much MORE pressure will come from management types when they know the pilots will do it their way or they wont be working.. and that mindset is alive and well in the north and not just Wasaya!

Fly safe all.

[Vortex_driver]

Here's a question for the Wasaya freight guys: Wasaya took the pressurization out of the Hawkers (maybe some have it??) so they could put in more freight. But this now requires them to fly at lower altitudes, therefore burning a substantial amount of fuel in comparison. How is it they thought this was a good idea?... or do they use the same fuel burn in a pressurized and non-pressurized Hawker?

You need a pretty long leg to make it worth it to climb high with a loaded hawker. Plus, the big doors that wasaya have on there hawkers are not from the factory and are not approved for pressurisation. I don't know if they have big doors on all of them though. Big doors from factory are hard to find. Air Inuit has two. For them, it is worthed to keep the pressurisation because there average leg is anywhere between 300-550nm. If your going at less then 300nm, it's not worthed to climb above 12000ft (northbound). The hawker is not like a dash. It does not have that much power and loaded, above 10000ft, you wont get more than 4-500ft/min on an average day. Remember, the dash8-100 got about the same HP then a hawker, but the hawker weighs 12000lbs more. There is no way your gonna climb to 18000ft at 46000lbs. only empty...

[Pugster]

Hey loop - long time no chat. Drop me a PM or give me a call sometime...

If I'm understanding this right, "granny gas" is fuel that is on board but not accounted for in the weight & balance.

My suggestion to anyone doing this is to glance at the 4 bars on your shoulder, pick up the phone, and tell your employer or the client that you need to bump payload in order to carry more fuel if the situation demands it. You're getting paid to make professional decisions in the left seat, not Mickey Mouse the situation to suit your personal comfort level. Likewise for the right seat - just because the guy to the left of you has the ultimate authority doesn't give him the right to do this. If you need the extra fuel, take it...but do it the right way.

After the YWG incident (and before, really), nobody should feel inclined to go with less fuel than they feel necessary to do the flight. This should always include "something" in your back pocket in case things go squirrely. Just make sure that whatever is in your back pocket is also on the W&B.

Why piss around? You're not getting paid for it - and if you are, polish up the resume.

My 2c.

Pugster

[flyinthebug]

I take an hour reserve wherever I'm going, cause.. what if I actually need to USE my reserve? With only a half hour reserve onboard I may then end up landing with only what, 5 minutes left? Not cool!

I do put it on my W&B though, my company doesn't mind.

As well they shouldnt. Remember just a few short years ago, the powers that be decided that VFR fuel should be greater then IFR?? 45 mins VFR and 30 mins IFR? Then someone came along and decided it should now be reversed? My point being.. If 1 hour is your personal comfort zone then by all means take an hour reserve! Just account for it in your loads, as you stated you do.

Fly safe!

[flyinthebug]

Hey loop - long time no chat. Drop me a PM or give me a call sometime...

If I'm understanding this right, "granny gas" is fuel that is on board but not accounted for in the weight & balance.

My suggestion to anyone doing this is to glance at the 4 bars on your shoulder, pick up the phone, and tell your employer or the client that you need to bump payload in order to carry more fuel if the situation demands it. You're getting paid to make professional decisions in the left seat, not Mickey Mouse the situation to suit your personal comfort level. Likewise for the right seat - just because the guy to the left of you has the ultimate authority doesn't give him the right to do this. If you need the extra fuel, take it...but do it the right way.

After the YWG incident (and before, really), nobody should feel inclined to go with less fuel than they feel necessary to do the flight. This should always include "something" in your back pocket in case things go squirrely. Just make sure that whatever is in your back pocket is also on the W&B.

Why piss around? You're not getting paid for it - and if you are, polish up the resume.

My 2c.

Pugster

X2 well said!

[Rog]

Why piss around? You're not getting paid for it - and if you are, polish up the resume.

I have great faith in the 748 and I know that shes got all the power you need to take some granny gas

I think it's pretty obvious that in many cases pilots are being paid to piss around. The senior guys get more and more money thrown at them to keep the status quo and keep doing things the way they have always been done. Owners fear losing them not only because they have to pay to train their replacement but also there's a good chance the new guy isn't going to cut the corners that made them so much extra cash. They might end up with someone like Doc that has enough experience, attitude, and back bone to say no and then walk away if management doesn't like it.

[Doc]

FTB....hum this to the tune of The Cat Came Back


NW came back, he didn't want to roam
A few months later, it was home sweet home......

[glorifiedtaxidriver]

I'd like to know if anybody on here complaining about Wasaya actually had RECENT first hand knowledge of the practices there. It sounds like a lot of past issues being brought up along with some personal vendettas.
For the record, all of the cookie sheets, pallets etc, and I mean EVERYTHING is included in the W&B for the hawkers. Management has no say in how much fuel the captain decides to take. The freight dept asks for a useable load and the capt provides it. 99% of the time with no questions asked. I have seen captains say that they need a little more than just minimum IFR fuel because of some reason or another and no one has ever questioned them.
There may be problems at Wasaya but this is not one of them. Please get your facts straight instead of just dragging up issues from the past.

[snaproll20]

Doc.

You said "they hate pilots".

This is usually the case in most of the 'bad' companies. I have never understood why some people start, or continue in a business where they demonstrably "hate" the very people they need to succeed.

I suppose to answer my own question, they make money, despite the abuses etc.

[phillyfan]

I'm gonna have a real problem with a pilot who is taking a hundred pounds or more of extra gas to get the job done. I'm not gonna tell the customer that he has to take off a couple hundred pounds, because the pilot is worried he might get lost and needs some extra gas. If you want to fly around with full tanks. Go rent an airplane from the local flying club. This should not even be an issue for a competent commercial pilot.

[sheephunter]

Flying with legal fuel is fine on those clear blue days and short hops where it is difficult to increase the overall flight time by much, but once it gets to taking off knowingly into marginal VFR for longer hauls, I want some extra fuel or I'll either sit without a job waiting for the next ride out of there or on a lake waiting for someone to bring me enough to safely get back to base and then look for a new job. I'm not going to purposely land on vapour just to make some pencil pusher that is already not paying me enough so that the moron at the other end can have a carton of smokes, 2 cases of beer and a bag of chips. I'll take the milk & eggs, paying clients but the fuel will replace the none essentials. If they really need it, they'll charter another flight on a nicer day. Phillyfan, toss my ap.

[Doc]

There seems to be some confusion over the term, "granny gas". Contingency fuel is that above the normal legal amount the crew decides to carry over and above the legal minimum. Granny gas, is that extra 45 minutes the crew "hides" from the prying eyes of the dispatcher. It remains incognito, so to speak until that rare day when it's needed. It used to be very, very, very common practice. I know it saved my bacon once. I'd almost forgotten the extra 60 gallons I "hid" in the Racer, till one day, the tanks we were using blew. Seems the fuel guy had not completed the job. He had to visit the fuel farm when his truck ran dry. He put the caps on, and off we went! Would have been a glider over Rat House Bay. But, we don't do that any more..right?

[yfly]

Priority number one should be fuel. Ideally, the legal and comfortable fuel level should be decided by the PIC. I have a real problem with managers that sacrafice the comfort level of the crew to squeeze on additional payload. If the margins are that tight, find a way to increase revenue while maintaining safety.

I have always increased reserves beyond what is required for those "just in case" scenarios. Never had a manager whine about it either.

Call it what you want, granny gas or whatever, I call it a comfort level.

[trey kule]

Maybe it is 'safe' to land with 46 minutes of fuel remaining? Thirty minutes unexpected holding for take-off and then unplanned headwinds will certainly increase the risk factor.

Here is a bulletin. Its perfectly safe (and legal if you took off with the required reserve), to land with 1 minutes fuel on board. Not particulary smart. And I am not advocating it, but dont use the safe word to begin to justify overfueling.

The problem here is that if, as some pilots are, a little more nervous than necessary, instead of dealing with fuel issues like planning early diversions, mid flight refuel stops if they cant make it....they just load a whole bunch of extra fuel on board. I have seen a pilot or two take on nearly six hours of fuel for a one hour flight in abslute CAVU Wx, actual and forecast, and then uplift to full tanks before the return...Claimed it was a "safety issue".
It wasnt. What it was, was a lack of confindence, and or ability .

So from a company's standpoint , they have to deal with pilots who think that they must have a minimum amount of fuel on board when they land to be legal. And I am not saying that is a bad idea but it is not a legal requirement. If the Wx is down, then contingency fuel may be a good idea...but to automatically add "contingency" fuel for no other reason than to "be extra safe" is not a great idea...

The fact which pilots never got in their innitial training is that fuel has weight. And if you put on fuel, in many cases you cannot carry as much load as required. And if you are carrying fuel around just for the sake of "safety", you are burning fuel to tanker it. So the issue of carrying contingency must be related to the realities of the situation, and the options available to refuel if things dont work as planned.....not just to "be safe".

Now lets hear all the ...exceptions that pilots want to use to as the rule..... 2000 mile flights from Toronto to Seal spit bay with not one alternate airport along the route and the wx at minimums everyhere.....thats not the rule..thats the exception in most cases, and extra fuel is warrented. But a true professional pilot can differentiate between that type of trip that warrents fuel and the type that does not...a poor pilot just wants to add a bunch of extra to compensate for their inability to plan and execute a flight properly.