GEAR UP LANDINGS
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GEAR UP LANDINGS
Given the discussion on the Cariboo thread, I thought it might be interesting to get a poll of what people think.
So far, I've never landed gear up, although I've had a couple of times years ago when the gear didn't go down when it should have and we caught it because of checklist crosscheck and verification procedures, as well as the usual warning tones blaring at us. As a result, I've developed my own personal practice of a glance at the gear indicator before crossing the threshold. I don't fly a lot anymore, but when I do fly I'm conscious that I do make mistakes, and many times me or the other pilot has said "Good thing there's two of us here watching each other." I still have some flying left to do, and I think there's still a very small possiblility that I could have a gear up landing.
I'm a "maybe, but very unlikely." What do you think about your probability of landing with the gear up at some point in your career?
Thought about this a bit and added the fixed gear option.
So far, I've never landed gear up, although I've had a couple of times years ago when the gear didn't go down when it should have and we caught it because of checklist crosscheck and verification procedures, as well as the usual warning tones blaring at us. As a result, I've developed my own personal practice of a glance at the gear indicator before crossing the threshold. I don't fly a lot anymore, but when I do fly I'm conscious that I do make mistakes, and many times me or the other pilot has said "Good thing there's two of us here watching each other." I still have some flying left to do, and I think there's still a very small possiblility that I could have a gear up landing.
I'm a "maybe, but very unlikely." What do you think about your probability of landing with the gear up at some point in your career?
Thought about this a bit and added the fixed gear option.
Last edited by Sidebar on Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- CelBatrin
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
"Maybe, but very unlikely."
I've yet to fly a retractable gear, but the though has me rather paranoid. I'll have to come up with my own check prior to the threshold as well (like the runway # and land clearance check around the same place on short final).
* For the record "I don't fly retractable gear" option was posted after my vote.
I've yet to fly a retractable gear, but the though has me rather paranoid. I'll have to come up with my own check prior to the threshold as well (like the runway # and land clearance check around the same place on short final).
* For the record "I don't fly retractable gear" option was posted after my vote.
Last edited by CelBatrin on Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'll just sneak through here... they'll never see me if I stay low.
Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
If you're like me, you'll feel naked on final with the gear up. Won't be hard to forget, unless you feel very comfortable naked.CelBatrin wrote:"Maybe, but very unlikely."
I've yet to fly a retractable gear, but the though has me rather paranoid. I'll have to come up with my own check prior to the threshold as well (like the runway # and land clearance check around the same place on short final).
Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
When I was doing my multi, I always re-checked the gear after called GUMP check complete. Sometimes I would check again on short final just to be uber sure. If you keep checking for it and make a conscious effort to ensure that it is down I don't see how you can land gear up. Now selecting the gear instead of the flaps on a touch and go would seem more plausible and it happened last year in this area. It just means that you have to keep checking and confirming.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
I usually put the gear down to help slow the aircraft for the retractables I've flown. I think that the plane coming in hot at normal approach power (and the horn when the power comes back) would alert me to the gear being up.
I always do a GUMPS check and a short finals check (Mixture, Props, Green). If I get distracted by a radio call or looking for traffic, I put my hand on the gear handle as a reminder that there is an action to perform.
I won't say I am above having an unintentional gear-up landing, but I try to do everything I can to avoid it.
"There are two types of pilots who fly retractable gear aircraft. Those who've landed with their gear up and those who will."-Unknown
I always do a GUMPS check and a short finals check (Mixture, Props, Green). If I get distracted by a radio call or looking for traffic, I put my hand on the gear handle as a reminder that there is an action to perform.
I won't say I am above having an unintentional gear-up landing, but I try to do everything I can to avoid it.
"There are two types of pilots who fly retractable gear aircraft. Those who've landed with their gear up and those who will."-Unknown
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
Nope. Will never happen. Ever. I will not do this. If the gear "will not come down" then it doesn't count, but it's just one of those things that will never happen to me. I will NEVER win the Masters, the Tour de France, the Indy 500, Wimbledon, Le Mans, the German Grand Prix, the Paris Dakar or land gear up, because I forgot to put it down! Take it to the bank!
Not all accidents are part of a chain of events. There are not always contributing factors. Some accidents are caused simply by the pilot. All by himself. I know you have been taught all the warm and fuzzy, politically correct terms. They do NOT always apply. Long hours, duty times, fatigue and all the rest sometimes do have some bearing on performance. No doubt about it. But lowering the gear is right up there with opening the bathroom door BEFORE we piss in the toilet! It's just one of those things we DO!
Not all accidents are part of a chain of events. There are not always contributing factors. Some accidents are caused simply by the pilot. All by himself. I know you have been taught all the warm and fuzzy, politically correct terms. They do NOT always apply. Long hours, duty times, fatigue and all the rest sometimes do have some bearing on performance. No doubt about it. But lowering the gear is right up there with opening the bathroom door BEFORE we piss in the toilet! It's just one of those things we DO!
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
My thought process is "I want to slow down and descend for approach." My first thought is "Gear." Power takes too long for my airplane to slow down. Takes 2-3 minutes after I reduce the power. Gear is much more effective at slowing me down.
I will put myself down as a maybe because I think its good to have the attitude of "There are those who have, and those that will."
I will put myself down as a maybe because I think its good to have the attitude of "There are those who have, and those that will."
Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
Our SOP's have the PNF call three green at 200'. It's one of the things I check most diligently when I'm PNF. I actually stare at the lights for at least a couple seconds to make sure my brain is not fooling me. When I'm PF I take at least a quick peek at them too while on short final, just to be sure the PNF did his or her job. By this point then the gear should have been confirmed three green four times in total, after it was called for on the checklist initially. Can't be too safe. By checking and rechecking, I expect (hope?) that it won't happen to me, but I won't be so arrogant to say it never will.
Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
How many here actually call "3 green" on the radio when on final?
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
Anyone else wondering how the two North Cariboo pilots would have voted a week ago? In the uber-elite 25% with Doc or with the 64% that think it just might be possible?
We've all heard of the swiss cheese accident model. Never much cared for the analogy. I tend to lean towards the pass-code theory. (my own) I don't think every pilot will land gear up. In fact I think the numbers will prove very few ever do. I do believe, that given the right set of conditions or triggers, it can happen to even the best of the pilots I have flown with. In some pilots the code may be short, say three numbers, each representing a hazard on a particular flight, that if unchecked and happen in the just the right combination with just the right timing... there will be a terrible scraping sound on touchdown.
Some pilots will have a longer combination than others maybe not three numbers, maybe eight or nine. That's eight or nine things that have to happen in a specific manner for a gear up landing to occur. This makes it much less likely to happen in a pilots career. Whether it's fatigue, complacency, pressure, stress, problems at home, an unrelated distracting mechanical issue, etc., given the right set of circumstances I personally believe we are all vulnerable to sitting on the ground with the same grief as the two pilots the other day.
Pilots who are adamant are either in complete denial of their true capabilities, or perhaps know they are lacking in some way and are putting forth a strong front in compensation.
If anyone here has ever read Bob Hoovers autobiography, you may remember his story about crashing his Shrike Commander shortly after take-off due to being fuelled with Jet fuel rather than avgas. Who's fault was it? The fuellers or Bob's? I've flown that airplane (the Shrike) and I can't even begin to tell you how many competent fuellers pulled up to it in a jet fuel truck. It closely resembles the turbo-commander. I knew this, so I never left the airplane until the fueller had started fuelling it with the actual avgas truck. This doesn't make me a better pilot than Bob Hoover. I was just being more careful than he was on the day of his crash. What Bob did next was what I am getting at. He got back to the airport, where his P-51 was parked for the airshow and found the fueller in a corner crying over his mistake. Bob went straight to him and informed him that he is the only fueller allowed to fuel his other airplane for the remainder of the event. His reasoning? Because that fueller wasn't going to make that mistake again.
Food for thought. The Cariboo guys seem to have hit their code the other day. I can't say if it took 3 numbers or 13. To be honest I don't care. But whatever it took to make them make this mistake has added numbrs to their code. Making it far less likely to happen to them again then certain others in our community.
Learn from your mistakes and move on people.
We've all heard of the swiss cheese accident model. Never much cared for the analogy. I tend to lean towards the pass-code theory. (my own) I don't think every pilot will land gear up. In fact I think the numbers will prove very few ever do. I do believe, that given the right set of conditions or triggers, it can happen to even the best of the pilots I have flown with. In some pilots the code may be short, say three numbers, each representing a hazard on a particular flight, that if unchecked and happen in the just the right combination with just the right timing... there will be a terrible scraping sound on touchdown.
Some pilots will have a longer combination than others maybe not three numbers, maybe eight or nine. That's eight or nine things that have to happen in a specific manner for a gear up landing to occur. This makes it much less likely to happen in a pilots career. Whether it's fatigue, complacency, pressure, stress, problems at home, an unrelated distracting mechanical issue, etc., given the right set of circumstances I personally believe we are all vulnerable to sitting on the ground with the same grief as the two pilots the other day.
Pilots who are adamant are either in complete denial of their true capabilities, or perhaps know they are lacking in some way and are putting forth a strong front in compensation.
If anyone here has ever read Bob Hoovers autobiography, you may remember his story about crashing his Shrike Commander shortly after take-off due to being fuelled with Jet fuel rather than avgas. Who's fault was it? The fuellers or Bob's? I've flown that airplane (the Shrike) and I can't even begin to tell you how many competent fuellers pulled up to it in a jet fuel truck. It closely resembles the turbo-commander. I knew this, so I never left the airplane until the fueller had started fuelling it with the actual avgas truck. This doesn't make me a better pilot than Bob Hoover. I was just being more careful than he was on the day of his crash. What Bob did next was what I am getting at. He got back to the airport, where his P-51 was parked for the airshow and found the fueller in a corner crying over his mistake. Bob went straight to him and informed him that he is the only fueller allowed to fuel his other airplane for the remainder of the event. His reasoning? Because that fueller wasn't going to make that mistake again.
Food for thought. The Cariboo guys seem to have hit their code the other day. I can't say if it took 3 numbers or 13. To be honest I don't care. But whatever it took to make them make this mistake has added numbrs to their code. Making it far less likely to happen to them again then certain others in our community.
Learn from your mistakes and move on people.
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"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.
Give him a mask and he will tell the truth." -- Oscar Wilde
"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.
Give him a mask and he will tell the truth." -- Oscar Wilde
Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
sometimes when im teaching my students, ill pull the breaker (after the gear is down and i keep my finger on it so i dont forget) to see if they still say '3 green'. almost invariably they still call it out. its a good teaching point.
there was ONE time i did not check the 3 green after putting the gear down, and that was immediatly following a shut down due to an oil leak. i realized after i landed that i had not confirmed it. it was only through rote habit that i put the gear down. i was rather preoccupied with the single engine appch. would have been a dumb reason to land gear up though. i learned a very valuable lesson that day: slow down during an emergency so you don't @#$! up and make it worse. i was rather troubled and dissapointed in myself following that landing. wont happen again though.
there was ONE time i did not check the 3 green after putting the gear down, and that was immediatly following a shut down due to an oil leak. i realized after i landed that i had not confirmed it. it was only through rote habit that i put the gear down. i was rather preoccupied with the single engine appch. would have been a dumb reason to land gear up though. i learned a very valuable lesson that day: slow down during an emergency so you don't @#$! up and make it worse. i was rather troubled and dissapointed in myself following that landing. wont happen again though.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
I am paranoid about landing gear up, which is why I always make sure my checks are slow and methodical. I know lots of guys who rattle off pre landing checks as quick as they can with out confirming what they are saying. I made that mistake once....
It was an amphib beaver, late in the day and I had made 6 landings on pavement that day. I had slowed the plane and extended the gear prior to turning final. I made a quick finals check affirming three green. On short final the enunciator turned on as the airspeed slowed thru 85mph and started to tell me that the gear was down for landing on the runway. I say started to tell me because I was in the habit of punching the button to silence it before it would even say "gear is..." Luckily I noticed at the last minuet that I had three green when landing on a lake. I then over shot retracted the gear and came around to land with the gear up. That could have been really really bad!
After that day I realized the problem with rattling off checks as fast as humanly possible and not confirming switch/handle position. Now I do all my checks slowly and methodically ensuring each switch is in the correct position.
Cheers
C_172pilot
It was an amphib beaver, late in the day and I had made 6 landings on pavement that day. I had slowed the plane and extended the gear prior to turning final. I made a quick finals check affirming three green. On short final the enunciator turned on as the airspeed slowed thru 85mph and started to tell me that the gear was down for landing on the runway. I say started to tell me because I was in the habit of punching the button to silence it before it would even say "gear is..." Luckily I noticed at the last minuet that I had three green when landing on a lake. I then over shot retracted the gear and came around to land with the gear up. That could have been really really bad!
After that day I realized the problem with rattling off checks as fast as humanly possible and not confirming switch/handle position. Now I do all my checks slowly and methodically ensuring each switch is in the correct position.
Cheers
C_172pilot
c_172pilot
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we have the capacity to achieve the impossible."
Aviation is proof, that given the will,
we have the capacity to achieve the impossible."
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
I would certainly rewrite that SOP -- isn't that what landing checklists are for - 200 feet is one of the most critical places for making a choice to land or not -- not check aircraft configurationsOur SOP's have the PNF call three green at 200'
-- no one shouldHow many here actually call "3 green" on the radio when on final?
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
3 green over the radio? Haha, I flew with a guy who liked to do that. Made me laugh...and shake my head.
Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
why is that? it used to be mandatory and if you fly to a military airport, you will probably be required to.602 wrote:3 green over the radio? Haha, I flew with a guy who liked to do that. Made me laugh...and shake my head.
Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
Calling 3 Green... unless the person is double checking the gear when they are on final and then saying 3 green thats fine.... but how many people think that this is just turns into an automated response and over time you end up saying it but in fact have not put the gear down....
Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
Tim wrote:sometimes when im teaching my students, ill pull the breaker (after the gear is down and i keep my finger on it so i dont forget)
Doesn't seem very smart to intentionally pull C/B's, after you've already seen what a distraction can do.Tim wrote: i was rather preoccupied with the single engine appch. would have been a dumb reason to land gear up though.
There is a reason in the ACP manual, it states that examiners are NOT to pull breakers when simulating emergencies.
Why not instead teach the student or modify your SOP's so that when confirming gear/flap selections, one has to POINT at the indicator? That would hopefully eliminate the rote response.
Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
If you fly to a military base they will ask you to confirm the gear after issuing your landing clearance. If you don't, they will re-ask you.Liquid Charlie wrote:-- no one shouldHow many here actually call "3 green" on the radio when on final?
Why is it so funny again?602 wrote:3 green over the radio? Haha, I flew with a guy who liked to do that. Made me laugh...and shake my head.
Going for the deck at corner
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
With your take off clearance tower should say, confirm flaps at T/O, walk around done, C of G in limits, aircraft fueled.....
Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
On the ground, you're at 1G, doing 0Kts and not manoevering. Much easier to remember thigns than when your mind is busy flying. Plus, it's common to every ground-based airframe : the gear MUST be down for landing. I don't see anything wrong with one more safety net.
Going for the deck at corner
Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
That's why the PNF does the check. The PF is flying the airplane. That's not to say the check has to be done right at 200', maybe shortly before, but it's called out by the PNF at 200' along with the altitude and airspeed. I didn't write that SOP but to me it is logical.Liquid Charlie wrote:I would certainly rewrite that SOP -- isn't that what landing checklists are for - 200 feet is one of the most critical places for making a choice to land or not -- not check aircraft configurationsOur SOP's have the PNF call three green at 200'
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
There was a crash of a big airliner that took off with flaps 0, all dead. Name me a crash have a big airliner that crashed, with all dead on board because of a gear up landing. So pulling numbers out of my a$$ I think it would be more important for tower to confirm flaps are at T/O.
I for one would not want the false sense of security, knowing that tower will always ask me to confirm 3 green. what if I'm at an uncontrolled airport and forget, and I cry, but no told me to confirm gear down. I could make an argument that tower asking for 3 green makes gear ups my likely.
I for one would not want the false sense of security, knowing that tower will always ask me to confirm 3 green. what if I'm at an uncontrolled airport and forget, and I cry, but no told me to confirm gear down. I could make an argument that tower asking for 3 green makes gear ups my likely.
Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS
Take this for what it's worth.
I think it's really dumb to pull breakers. Unless, a checklist calls for it.
I think it's silly to call "three green" or any variation of the theme before landing....it becomes so automatic, that it doesn't mean it was really checked.
Any, and all checks should be taken care of well above 200 feet!
If I deviate from SOP, I'll brief. If I'm leaving the gear up for any reason, be it a circling approach single engine (in a twin..DUH), dealing with another cockpit matter, or receiving a BJ, I place an LE chart (or some object) between the power levers to remind me that all is not as it should be. (Kind of like tying a string around your finger) There is some important item to be dealt with before landing. This works. Very well.
I think it's really dumb to pull breakers. Unless, a checklist calls for it.
I think it's silly to call "three green" or any variation of the theme before landing....it becomes so automatic, that it doesn't mean it was really checked.
Any, and all checks should be taken care of well above 200 feet!
If I deviate from SOP, I'll brief. If I'm leaving the gear up for any reason, be it a circling approach single engine (in a twin..DUH), dealing with another cockpit matter, or receiving a BJ, I place an LE chart (or some object) between the power levers to remind me that all is not as it should be. (Kind of like tying a string around your finger) There is some important item to be dealt with before landing. This works. Very well.