A water bomber question.
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- Cat Driver
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A water bomber question.
I was doing touch and goes on lake Okanagan a couple of weeks ago and saw the first fire start in Kelowna.
The first tanker to hit the fire from the base at Penticton took some time to get to the fire and by the time it dropped the first load the fire had gotten out of control.
Here is my question.
How many Fire Bosses can you buy for the price of one CL415 and what would be the difference in delivery rate of water between one 415 and xx Fire Bosses?
I can come up with the answer myself, but I thought I would put it out there for discussion.
The first tanker to hit the fire from the base at Penticton took some time to get to the fire and by the time it dropped the first load the fire had gotten out of control.
Here is my question.
How many Fire Bosses can you buy for the price of one CL415 and what would be the difference in delivery rate of water between one 415 and xx Fire Bosses?
I can come up with the answer myself, but I thought I would put it out there for discussion.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: A water bomber question.
OK Cat, I'll bite on this. I don't really know how many it would take to deliver the same gallons as a 415 but as you know with the intesity of those fires it is all about the amount that can be delivered in one lump as that is what it takes to knock them down. The Fireboss as with the Twin Otter lack the punch it takes to knock a fire with any intensity down. In 2003 when Kelowna was burning last time they had the Mars as well as the 415's working it and at the end of the day the 415 had dropped more gallons than the Mars. This was the norm on a daily basis! As we know the Mars carries a huge load compared to the 415 but lacks the maneuverability.
I will go out on a limb here at state that there is nothing available that can deliver more water faster to a fire and for the continuous amount of time that a CL-415 can. I mean nothing and that includes helicopters!!
They are expensive but you get what you pay for!!!
I will go out on a limb here at state that there is nothing available that can deliver more water faster to a fire and for the continuous amount of time that a CL-415 can. I mean nothing and that includes helicopters!!
They are expensive but you get what you pay for!!!
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
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Re: A water bomber question.
CLguy wrote: I will go out on a limb here at state that there is nothing available that can deliver more water faster to a fire and for the continuous amount of time that a CL-415 can. I mean nothing and that includes helicopters!!
I will of course beg to differ there.
When you get a Crane or Chinook, or any of the Heavies bucketing 2000 Imp Gallon loads on a fire with a close water source, I have a hard time believing a 415 at 1600 US Gallons per load would out-do that. But, if the turns are long the 415 would do more on speed. However, you're talking apples and oranges as what helicopters do with buckets is different than what FW assets are used for.
stl
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Re: A water bomber question.
Thanks CLguy I agree generally with what you are saying, however I am involved in a project to put Fire Bosses in critical areas in Europe to protect high value properties.
The Idea being the higher number of airplanes would cover a bigger area and as long as they got started hitting the fires as soon as they start the holding of the fires would allow follow up suppression to keep it from growing in size.
By the way Al I am not interested in actually doing any of the flying because I found a new life outside of aviation.
P.S. :
It is not the machine that really counts, it is the skills of the operators that really determines the effectiveness....
The Idea being the higher number of airplanes would cover a bigger area and as long as they got started hitting the fires as soon as they start the holding of the fires would allow follow up suppression to keep it from growing in size.
By the way Al I am not interested in actually doing any of the flying because I found a new life outside of aviation.

P.S. :
It is not the machine that really counts, it is the skills of the operators that really determines the effectiveness....

The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: A water bomber question.
Well STL for sure they have different roles. No doubt about that but how long does a Crane take to load and how long can it last on a fire before it leaves for fuel. A 415 can do a circuit in the time it takes to load and it is only good for a hour or maybe 1.5 on the fire. I stand by my statement!!
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Re: A water bomber question.
CLguy wrote:Well STL for sure they have different roles. No doubt about that but how long does a Crane take to load and how long can it last on a fire before it leaves for fuel. A 415 can do a circuit in the time it takes to load and it is only good for a hour or maybe 1.5 on the fire. I stand by my statement!!
It all depends on distance to the water source, and type of tank/bucket being used. A bucket is as simple as a dip and takes about as long as it took me to type this sentence, and tanks will pump full. I think you'd find on a close proximity to water fire, the Crane would run laps around everything else, that's why they use them so much. My co-worker and I were working a fire in June and he placed bucket inside the top of a 180ft, hollow, burning cedar snag and punched it - quite a show when the water hit the fire....! That was an Astar bucket but still a couple hundred gallons.
I think you need to grab that 415 and come here on and see for yourself what the heavy helis can do - it's pretty impressive.
At the end of the day, it takes all kinds of assets to put out a fire, and neither water bombers or helicopters can do it alone - they all require the grunts on the ground to dig it out and hose it down. Now, how many grunts can you deploy per hour???

stl
Re: A water bomber question.
Couldn't agree with you more!! Well if the phone ever rings maybe our paths will cross!! Stay safe out there!!At the end of the day, it takes all kinds of assets to put out a fire, and neither water bombers or helicopters can do it alone - they all require the grunts on the ground to dig it out and hose it down.
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
Re: A water bomber question.
Back in my day, the Ducks were tried in BC but unless the fires were adjacent to a water source, they couldn't do it efficiently in the mountains. That's why, until recently, they only used retardant bombers. I witnessed a fire in Port Hardy and the Ducks pasted it before the DC6 could reload in Campbell River. Perfect conditions for them, although they found the bones of 2 scuba divers and a shark in the fire. 

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Re: A water bomber question.
To answer Cat's original question:
CL-415 about $26 Million USD - about 1,620 US gallons.
AT-802 Fireboss about $1.8 Million USD - about 820 US gallons.
Source: Wikipedia. Please correct me if any of the figures are way off.
So, for the price of their 9 - 415's, Ontario could get 130 Firebosses. I'll leave the conclusions to you regarding any possible political or other motivations that helped that deal through.
CL-415 about $26 Million USD - about 1,620 US gallons.
AT-802 Fireboss about $1.8 Million USD - about 820 US gallons.
Source: Wikipedia. Please correct me if any of the figures are way off.
So, for the price of their 9 - 415's, Ontario could get 130 Firebosses. I'll leave the conclusions to you regarding any possible political or other motivations that helped that deal through.
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Re: A water bomber question.
The 415's are assembled in Ontario so each 415 that comes off the line is money in the gumitup coffers off-setting the $22 mil each Ontario paid. The money and the jobs stay in Canada.I'll leave the conclusions to you regarding any possible political or other motivations that helped that deal through.
The 415 is quite a bit faster so the critical minutes when a fire starts to grow is mitigated.
On a fire a few years I was working with 3 Fire Boss AC. We applied 2 loads to their 1. The turn around for us was 2 minutes and it was 4 min. for them. In fact they slowed us down. We were dispatched together out of YTS. After working the fire for less that 3 hours they all had to return for fuel we stayed for another hr.
I terms of scooping distance we were sure off the lake faster and much shorter than them.
I really believe that we could use more lakes than they because of that even though they don't draw as much draught.
The Fire Boss only drops it's 800 US Gal after 75% of it's fire fighting fuel is gone. Most of the time they drop 500 to 550 US Gallons. The 415 can do full loads after on an 80 mile dispatch for the entire flight when fueled for a 4 hr. mission
Thats about how many they'd need to offset 9 415'sSo, for the price of their 9 - 415's, Ontario could get 130 Firebosses

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Re: A water bomber question.
I agree that the 415 is the superior aircraft. Vastly superior in some aspects. Whether it is 14 times better is something that a lot of 415 operating nations and parts of this one are questioning. Ontario will too some day.Driving Rain wrote:Thats about how many they'd need to offset 9 415'sSo, for the price of their 9 - 415's, Ontario could get 130 Firebosses
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Re: A water bomber question.
From my experience in fire suppression it is my opinion that initial attack immediately after the fire starts is the role of aerial attack be it fixed or rotary wing.
Lets take these new Kelowna fires as an example.
The first two fires were right in the built up part of Kelowna.
Two Fire Bosses based on the water right in the city would have been able to launch immediately and scoop a load on take off, they would have been in action minutes after the first sign of smoke and kept the fire temperature down until the heavy bombers arrived.
Where there is a real chance of the fire getting away is if the first drop made by a land based long term retardent is not accurately dropped the fire can really grow while they fly back to base for another load.
Lets take these new Kelowna fires as an example.
The first two fires were right in the built up part of Kelowna.
Two Fire Bosses based on the water right in the city would have been able to launch immediately and scoop a load on take off, they would have been in action minutes after the first sign of smoke and kept the fire temperature down until the heavy bombers arrived.
Where there is a real chance of the fire getting away is if the first drop made by a land based long term retardent is not accurately dropped the fire can really grow while they fly back to base for another load.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: A water bomber question.
Well Cat in theory you are correct but in reality maybe not. First of all it is mid 30's in Kelowna so I doubt you would have the pilots sitting in the cockpits. They would be in a hotel room near by or some sort of accommodations would have to be provided near the shore. Once the call actually comes they would have to be transported to the aircraft by boat if they are attached to a buoy or anchor, unhooked etc. Not sure where they would be docked but still there would be a lead time to get things in motion. They may as well be sitting at the airport but you are correct that a couple of scoopers stationed there and dispatched immediately would have made all the difference assuming they were able to drop a big enough load to make a difference.
Watching a DC-6 dropping retardent on the National News with Lake Okanagan right there is almost laughable!!
Watching a DC-6 dropping retardent on the National News with Lake Okanagan right there is almost laughable!!
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Re: A water bomber question.
CLguy wrote: First of all it is mid 30's in Kelowna so I doubt you would have the pilots sitting in the cockpit. They would be in a hotel room near by or some sort of accommodations would have to be provided near the shore.
Interesting.
When we are on "Reds" with an I.A. Crew in helicopters, we're on a 5 minute call - ie. from call to airborne is 5 mins, we usually make it in 3.
The best method to attack fire is indeed to hit it early with I.A. assets. That means a heli IA crew launched asap, early buckets on the fire while FW assets move into place, and ground troops getting an accurate assessment of what/where/how things need to be deployed.
Airplanes are for building lines, helicopters are generally for high accuracy spot drops, and the ground boys and girls control fuels. If the fire is let go to 1 HA or more, especially in these conditions with mountainous terrain, things can get out of control very quickly. BCFS like retardant for a variety of reasons, and it certainly has its place in line building, where water alone is not enough.
As Cat eluded to earlier, it is critical that the people driving the airborne assets have a good understanding of fire behavior, their own machines, and are competent to operate them effectively. All pilots are NOT created equally, and in the helicopter world we see frequently guys spraying the countryside with buckets that do little to help. The Bombers usually have a bird-dog telling them what and where, helicopters don't have this much of the time unless there are Crew/Sector Bosses calling in drops.
I find it hard to grasp if BCFS doesn't have the FW, RW, and ground assets on 5 minute launch in the Okanogan Valley given recent years.
stl
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Re: A water bomber question.
That is the key, and these pilots should be paid accordingly.As Cat eluded to earlier, it is critical that the people driving the airborne assets have a good understanding of fire behavior, their own machines, and are competent to operate them effectively.
For initial attack a bird dog is not needed.The Bombers usually have a bird-dog telling them what and where, helicopters don't have this much of the time unless there are Crew/Sector Bosses calling in drops.
I operated lone wolf for years and the secret to effectiveness was get there fast and understand how to best get it contained.
I flew one pass over the fire and drew a line on the head of the fire using visual clues to keep me on target during the turn and descent to the drop. We worked the head and then the flanks until it was contained.
I listened to a B.C. Forest Air Attack Officer on the radio last week make the statement that he was the expert on how to fight fires and the pilots and ground crews were just assets he used. He went on to say how he was the expert on fire behavior and how to deliver retardant / water to the fire.
Amazing statement.
I guess all those idiots that have been flying the fire bombers for decades have no clue about fire behavior and would be fucked if they were alone and did not have one of those experts to lead them by the hand.
Maybe because it is a clusterfucked bureaucracy?I find it hard to grasp if BCFS doesn't have the FW, RW, and ground assets on 5 minute launch in the Okanogan Valley given recent years.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: A water bomber question.
Not forgetting the AWESOME knockdown capability of three 415 in an aeriel attack on a fire .Beautiful to watch the aerial ballet of a well trained crew just doing their job
AWESOME


AWESOME
Re: A water bomber question.
1.8 M$ vs. 22 M$
That's a really big issue to overcome. Made in Canada, or not.
You could darken the skies with Bosses.
I like the idea of spreading out the assets, rather than having all the eggs in one basket.
The gun registry cost the tax payer 2 BILLION! At that price, we could have a Fire Boss on every large lake, in most fire areas, and move them around as needed?
I'm with Cat on the "get there early" line of thought. A Fire Boss at hand is better than a CL415 enroute. They just have to remember "gear up when going wet, gear down when going dry..."
That's a really big issue to overcome. Made in Canada, or not.
You could darken the skies with Bosses.
I like the idea of spreading out the assets, rather than having all the eggs in one basket.
The gun registry cost the tax payer 2 BILLION! At that price, we could have a Fire Boss on every large lake, in most fire areas, and move them around as needed?
I'm with Cat on the "get there early" line of thought. A Fire Boss at hand is better than a CL415 enroute. They just have to remember "gear up when going wet, gear down when going dry..."
Re: A water bomber question.
You can say that again...no matter how effective they can be, in the hand of amateursIt is not the machine that really counts, it is the skills of the operators that really determines the effectiveness....
like the military, water bombers or retardants can be a joke...I've seen Vertols and Hercules in Europe
dump over a mile away from the target.
With the 215 we where be over the fire every three minutes for well over three hours
and France's "Noria" is the most impressive...every five second,
a Canadair dumping right off the nose of an "A Star"...has to be
a hell of a fire to resist that!
Soooo...what's next, the thousand gallon SEAT?
Would give the Canadairs a run for their money...
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Re: A water bomber question.
wtf... Who's gonna pay for those 130 placards? Not me!"gear up when going wet, gear down when going dry..."
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Re: A water bomber question.
Cat Driver wrote:That is the key, and these pilots should be paid accordingly.As Cat eluded to earlier, it is critical that the people driving the airborne assets have a good understanding of fire behavior, their own machines, and are competent to operate them effectively.
For initial attack a bird dog is not needed.The Bombers usually have a bird-dog telling them what and where, helicopters don't have this much of the time unless there are Crew/Sector Bosses calling in drops.
I operated lone wolf for years and the secret to effectiveness was get there fast and understand how to best get it contained.
I flew one pass over the fire and drew a line on the head of the fire using visual clues to keep me on target during the turn and descent to the drop. We worked the head and then the flanks until it was contained.
I listened to a B.C. Forest Air Attack Officer on the radio last week make the statement that he was the expert on how to fight fires and the pilots and ground crews were just assets he used. He went on to say how he was the expert on fire behavior and how to deliver retardant / water to the fire.
Amazing statement.
I guess all those idiots that have been flying the fire bombers for decades have no clue about fire behavior and would be fucked if they were alone and did not have one of those experts to lead them by the hand.Maybe because it is a clusterfucked bureaucracy?I find it hard to grasp if BCFS doesn't have the FW, RW, and ground assets on 5 minute launch in the Okanogan Valley given recent years.
I know lots of 30 yr plus guys still doing the business today. None of them want to go back to the lone wolf cowboy days of the 1960's and early 1970's. Effective fire management in a confined interface hazard like the Okanagan valley means coordination between ground crews, helicopters, and airtankers, so that everybody works against the same objective and nobody on the ground gets killed by a load of retardent. That's one (of many) good reasons to have a birddog.
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Re: A water bomber question.
Are you suggesting we all were cowboys?I know lots of 30 yr plus guys still doing the business today. None of them want to go back to the lone wolf cowboy days of the 1960's and early 1970's.
For your information bird dog airplanes were part of our fleet, in fact the company I flew for had nine bird dog airplanes.
I worked as a lone wolf because that is what I specialized at and the forestry departments that paid for my services found that it was well worth the cost.
If I were seen as a " cowboy " the chances of me keeping my job would have been slim to zero.
Effective fire management in a confined interface hazard like the Okanagan valley means coordination between ground crews, helicopters, and airtankers, so that everybody works against the same objective and nobody on the ground gets killed by a load of retardent. That's one (of many) good reasons to have a birddog.
Maybe you should read what I said B.P.F. my comments were regarding one tanker at a base that went out all on its own to hit a new start before the rest of the suppression group were able to get there.
If a fire just started in the wilderness the chances of anyone being on the ground that close to the fire that they would be killed by the water drop is as remote as them getting hit by a meterorite.
No where have I suggested that a bird dog is not needed when there is more than one machine working the fire and or ground crew there. I worked fires in Ontario and Manitoba where we had tankers from all over Canada and many helicopters, it would have been chaos without bird dog airplanes...and of course a high cover all over fire boss flying above everyone. What you have today was around thirty years ago and the crews were not cowboys as you suggest.
I find it offensive that you seem to take every opportunity to suggest that we were somehow inferior to your generation and we were cowboys.
Before you get on a high horse and make statements about an era before you were flying you might want to consider that some of us have not only flown the older aircraft that brought aviation to where it is now but we have also flown the latest technology in aviation.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: A water bomber question.
Hi everyone
I am just a rookie waterbomber pilot on my 3rd season with the CL-215 , so here is a question. How do you think many CL-215 / 415 drivers with 20 or more seasons will take to a Fire Boss. Not only that but how will they react to being based in the middle of no where after spending most of their careers at 415/215 crew bases, and seeing how most waterbombing work is a function of provincial governments I can see the unions making a lot of fuss about relocating crews. Now I have read somewhere that the fire boss cannot handle more than a two foot wave and has a limited range compared to the 215/415. Now coming from my part of the country , a two foot wave is a super calm lake and a rare occurrence . How could a fire boss fly for 1 to 2 hours , fight a fire for 1 hour on a 3 foot wave and return to base. Now I'm just asking because I'm new at this game. Also what happens if other Provinces call for help, are fire boss certified to fly IFR , if so , isn't their range less than 3 hours. Judging by their speed with waterbombing floats , doesn't seem like they will get very far very fast. Now maybe they would be a great addition to a 415 but as a replacement , I think there may be some issues with that.
I am just a rookie waterbomber pilot on my 3rd season with the CL-215 , so here is a question. How do you think many CL-215 / 415 drivers with 20 or more seasons will take to a Fire Boss. Not only that but how will they react to being based in the middle of no where after spending most of their careers at 415/215 crew bases, and seeing how most waterbombing work is a function of provincial governments I can see the unions making a lot of fuss about relocating crews. Now I have read somewhere that the fire boss cannot handle more than a two foot wave and has a limited range compared to the 215/415. Now coming from my part of the country , a two foot wave is a super calm lake and a rare occurrence . How could a fire boss fly for 1 to 2 hours , fight a fire for 1 hour on a 3 foot wave and return to base. Now I'm just asking because I'm new at this game. Also what happens if other Provinces call for help, are fire boss certified to fly IFR , if so , isn't their range less than 3 hours. Judging by their speed with waterbombing floats , doesn't seem like they will get very far very fast. Now maybe they would be a great addition to a 415 but as a replacement , I think there may be some issues with that.
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Re: A water bomber question.
Outsider, the Fire Boss can not replace the heavy bombers, they are best suited to protecting high value real estate in a small area.
Quite often fast initial attack will be successful even with limited size loads, as to the wave height thing that is sometimes a factor, but they would not be based in an area that was known for having those conditions.
It is just another tool to fit in the picture.
Quite often fast initial attack will be successful even with limited size loads, as to the wave height thing that is sometimes a factor, but they would not be based in an area that was known for having those conditions.
It is just another tool to fit in the picture.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: A water bomber question.
here is another question that may seem silly but oh well, I was trained on the 215 by guys with 30 years plus in the waterbombing trade and it showed, how does a pilot get experience on a fire boss, is there a two seat trainer version, if not, where do the crews get the water knowledge and the knowledge required to tackle a fire properly , I know where I am getting it , from the guy in the left seat. So in the single seat fire boss who passes on the knowledge, a 10,000 hour beaver pilot may be able to handle a fire boss with a little time , but where would the fire fighting knowledge come from , and lets face it more and more young pilots don't want a career in the bush, the want to fly the modern jets , also the firefighting business is seasonal , another reason why some pilots shy away, they need that year round pay, so basically my point is the 215/415 has another advantage in the fact that it is also a great machine to teach rookies like myself. The same would be true of helicopters , a new pilot can sit in the empty seat and learn. Again its just a point i'm bringing up. If anyone can fill in the gap , go ahead.