VFR pilot into IMC

[FlaplessDork]

Cadors Number: 2009C2337 Reporting Region: Prairie & Northern

Reported By: NAV CANADA AOR Number: 110584-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation: TSB Occurrence No.:
Event InformationNavigation assistance
Navigation error
Aircraft InformationFlight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: CESSNA Model: 172N
Year Built: 1976 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: AVCO LYCOMING Engine Model: O-320-H2AD
Engine Type: Reciprocating Gear Type: Land
Phase of Flight: Cruise Damage: No Damage
Owner: SPRINGBANK AERO FLIGHT TRAINING INC. Operator: SPRINGBANK AERO FLIGHT TRAINING INC.
Operator Type: Commercial

Detail InformationUser Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2009/08/24
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: General Aviation
Narrative: C-GYDE, a Cessna 172 owned by Springbank Aero Flight Training, was on a VFR flight from Springbank to Red Deer and the pilot first reported to Red Deer FSS east (DF bearing 076) of YQF above cloud. FSS provided the pilot the altimeter setting and asked him if he was IFR capable (he was not.) The pilot then reported in cloud and descending, and shortly after reported below cloud and then was given VDF assistance to find the airport. The aircraft then landed without further incident. METAR CYQF 231800 30010KT 8SM BKN013 14/10 A2981 RMK SC7

What the hell? Descending into cloud? Turn around. Where is that "178 seconds" article? My experience teaching IFR is that the first time students get into the clag is that some love to put me into a spiral in the turns.

[Hedley]

O-320-H2AD

The amazing thing is that his engine continued
running long enough to complete the flight

[FlaplessDork]

Quote:
O-320-H2AD


The amazing thing is that his engine continued
running long enough to complete the flight

Actually when I worked for them nearly two years ago, I had the engine switched out to a D2J with the Pennyan LSTC. No more oil AD & an extra 100lbs payload.

[Dagwood]

Where is that "178 seconds" article?

It's right here!

[CelBatrin]

[Randleman]

Hmm, perhaps he did not have enough fuel to turn around? Quite frankly, I would have done the same. Maybe not as a Private pilot with minimal instrument training, but now that I have my instrument rating, if I ever found myself in a situation where I deemed it was necessary to enter cloud in VFR conditions for safety reasons, I would not hesitate to do so. Save my life first and get my butt on the ground, than we can do the paperwork that comes along with it. It's better to have to do the paperwork than never even get the chance. That being said, as a young private pilot, the only reason I would descend through the cloud is if there was no other possible route within range of my airplane at the time where it was clear.

Nevertheless, good on the pilot for making it to the ground.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Randleman

Quite frankly, I would have done the same. Maybe not as a Private pilot with minimal instrument training, but now that I have my instrument rating, if I ever found myself in a situation where I deemed it was necessary to enter cloud in VFR conditions for safety reasons, I would not hesitate to do so.

Are you kidding me?
1- Why would you find yourself in the clag when flying VFR conditions?
2- What the hell do you mean by your knowingly going into cloud for safety reasons???
3- How long do you plan on living?
4- Will you be taking those risks with unknowing passengers on board?????
5- Who taught you to think this way, because they should really get out of instructing!

[FlaplessDork]

Hmm, perhaps he did not have enough fuel to turn around? Quite frankly, I would have done the same. Maybe not as a Private pilot with minimal instrument training, but now that I have my instrument rating, if I ever found myself in a situation where I deemed it was necessary to enter cloud in VFR conditions for safety reasons, I would not hesitate to do so. Save my life first and get my butt on the ground, than we can do the paperwork that comes along with it. It's better to have to do the paperwork than never even get the chance. That being said, as a young private pilot, the only reason I would descend through the cloud is if there was no other possible route within range of my airplane at the time where it was clear

Knowing the weather on that day, the area and the airplane and the school fuel policy turning around would not have been an issue.

[Shiny Side Up]

Randleman

Quite frankly, I would have done the same. Maybe not as a Private pilot with minimal instrument training, but now that I have my instrument rating, if I ever found myself in a situation where I deemed it was necessary to enter cloud in VFR conditions for safety reasons, I would not hesitate to do so.

Are you kidding me?
1- Why would you find yourself in the clag when flying VFR conditions?
2- What the hell do you mean by your knowingly going into cloud for safety reasons???
3- How long do you plan on living?
4- Will you be taking those risks with unknowing passengers on board?????
5- Who taught you to think this way, because they should really get out of instructing!

Personally, I'm just curious as to what "safety reason" one could have for making the choice to enter cloud could be, especially if the option to not enter cloud is still available. Flying IFR unplanned and without a machine ideal to the task is a recipe for disaster. Personally I'm not a fan of flying small planes IFR when it is planned. The part I hate the most is the point of cloud entry, forcing yourself to not look outside. Anyone who thinks it would be a cakewalk has never done it. Anything short of trying to shake a pair of 109s off your tail isn't a good reason to enter cloud when you're flying VFR.

[Lurch]

Hmm, perhaps he did not have enough fuel to turn around? Quite frankly, I would have done the same. Maybe not as a Private pilot with minimal instrument training, but now that I have my instrument rating, if I ever found myself in a situation where I deemed it was necessary to enter cloud in VFR conditions for safety reasons, I would not hesitate to do so. Save my life first and get my butt on the ground, than we can do the paperwork that comes along with it. It's better to have to do the paperwork than never even get the chance. That being said, as a young private pilot, the only reason I would descend through the cloud is if there was no other possible route within range of my airplane at the time where it was clear.

Nevertheless, good on the pilot for making it to the ground.

What???

I'd like to know how much IMC experience you actually have.

I can't imagine any situation in which I would take a C172 into IMC when I can just turn around and land somewhere else VMC.

Randleman I'll take a guess that you don't know the area or conditions of that day.

YQF was 900' overcast for at least 3 hours prior to this flight departing from YBW, a 30 minute flight. the plane has long range tanks so they probably have 6 hours of fuel on board. I was airborne at the time and it was VMC up until 10 miles from the airport. There are at least 3 airports they could have gone to within 10 minutes of flying time. They didn't take on any fuel while in YQF before departing back to YBW.

There was absolutely no reason for this person (I'll use person because they don't deserve the title of pilot on this one) to push weather, limits, and safety to try and land in YQF. This was a case of extreme poor PDM and this person was very lucky to get out alive. Their luck bucket just got a lot lighter, I hope something ended up in their experience bucket.

P.S. they weren't the only 172 to try and get into YQF that day, the other plane was smart enough to divert and not to even try. This was not me by the way.

Lurch

[iflyforpie]

While many pilots could competently descend through a cloud layer to break out over flat terrain (this procedure is actually written out in some 172 POHs) I would agree this is a poor action to take in light the risk and several other options available.

I am wondering what possessed them to go above a cloud layer so large that they had to descend though it...

[sky's the limit]

Hmm, perhaps he did not have enough fuel to turn around? Quite frankly, I would have done the same. Maybe not as a Private pilot with minimal instrument training, but now that I have my instrument rating, if I ever found myself in a situation where I deemed it was necessary to enter cloud in VFR conditions for safety reasons, I would not hesitate to do so. Save my life first and get my butt on the ground, than we can do the paperwork that comes along with it. It's better to have to do the paperwork than never even get the chance. That being said, as a young private pilot, the only reason I would descend through the cloud is if there was no other possible route within range of my airplane at the time where it was clear.

Nevertheless, good on the pilot for making it to the ground.

Things you just never hear from the mouths of VFR mountain pilots.....

I think everyone else has countered this adequately.

stl

[Invertago]

What could have forced him to come down through the clouds?

VFR OTT and the weather changed enroute?


Now lets debate VFR OTT in a C172? I wouldn't do it over 900' ceilings.

[FlaplessDork]

The question is, was there an instructor onboard? If not, why did the instructor send the student solo without reviewing the weather? Where was the operational control?

[Invertago]

The question is, was there an instructor onboard? If not, why did the instructor send the student solo without reviewing the weather? Where was the operational control?

Maybe it was a PPL renter?

[FlaplessDork]

Maybe it was a PPL renter?

Its even more important to have operational control for renters. They are the biggest risks in terms of incidents, accidents, and violations even more so if they come from another school.

[Randleman]

Randleman

Quite frankly, I would have done the same. Maybe not as a Private pilot with minimal instrument training, but now that I have my instrument rating, if I ever found myself in a situation where I deemed it was necessary to enter cloud in VFR conditions for safety reasons, I would not hesitate to do so.

Are you kidding me?
1- Why would you find yourself in the clag when flying VFR conditions?
2- What the hell do you mean by your knowingly going into cloud for safety reasons???
3- How long do you plan on living?
4- Will you be taking those risks with unknowing passengers on board?????
5- Who taught you to think this way, because they should really get out of instructing!

No I'm not kidding you.
I am talking about a situation where you are flying through a hilly region where the weather has come down on you and you are trying to stay out of the soup, but also trying to keep your distance from the ground/obstacles.

1. I just gave you my reason, I would rather fly through the clouds than through trees.
2. Read above^^
3. However long i am supposed to? What kind of a question is that?
4. I am not suggesting just going into cloud for the heck of it, I am talking about an IFR rated pilot in an IFR rated plane who knows what he's doing and does it to be safe.
5. A few senior airline pilots at Jazz actually told me this scenerio, not instructors.

Judging by your response, I am guessing you are an instructor? Which really doesn't surprise me. I can almost guarentee you an airline would want the person who's going to do what's necessary to get the plane back safely. Which is why air operators tend to prefer non instruction time-instructors stick by the rules too much.

[Randleman]

Randleman

Quite frankly, I would have done the same. Maybe not as a Private pilot with minimal instrument training, but now that I have my instrument rating, if I ever found myself in a situation where I deemed it was necessary to enter cloud in VFR conditions for safety reasons, I would not hesitate to do so.

Are you kidding me?
1- Why would you find yourself in the clag when flying VFR conditions?
2- What the hell do you mean by your knowingly going into cloud for safety reasons???
3- How long do you plan on living?
4- Will you be taking those risks with unknowing passengers on board?????
5- Who taught you to think this way, because they should really get out of instructing!

Personally, I'm just curious as to what "safety reason" one could have for making the choice to enter cloud could be, especially if the option to not enter cloud is still available. Flying IFR unplanned and without a machine ideal to the task is a recipe for disaster. Personally I'm not a fan of flying small planes IFR when it is planned. The part I hate the most is the point of cloud entry, forcing yourself to not look outside. Anyone who thinks it would be a cakewalk has never done it. Anything short of trying to shake a pair of 109s off your tail isn't a good reason to enter cloud when you're flying VFR.

If the option was there to not enter cloud and still remain safe you bet i would take that option, but I would do what's necessary to keep safe. Rules are there to keep you safe, but once the rules turn against you, than you need to take action. I know it's not a cakewalk, I have my IFR rating and IMC time, it's not as easy as it looks, but you don't get an IFR rating for nothing.

By the way, I'm talking about an IFR rated plane here, not just some random 150.

[Randleman]

Hmm, perhaps he did not have enough fuel to turn around? Quite frankly, I would have done the same. Maybe not as a Private pilot with minimal instrument training, but now that I have my instrument rating, if I ever found myself in a situation where I deemed it was necessary to enter cloud in VFR conditions for safety reasons, I would not hesitate to do so. Save my life first and get my butt on the ground, than we can do the paperwork that comes along with it. It's better to have to do the paperwork than never even get the chance. That being said, as a young private pilot, the only reason I would descend through the cloud is if there was no other possible route within range of my airplane at the time where it was clear.

Nevertheless, good on the pilot for making it to the ground.

What???

I'd like to know how much IMC experience you actually have.

I can't imagine any situation in which I would take a C172 into IMC when I can just turn around and land somewhere else VMC.

Randleman I'll take a guess that you don't know the area or conditions of that day.

YQF was 900' overcast for at least 3 hours prior to this flight departing from YBW, a 30 minute flight. the plane has long range tanks so they probably have 6 hours of fuel on board. I was airborne at the time and it was VMC up until 10 miles from the airport. There are at least 3 airports they could have gone to within 10 minutes of flying time. They didn't take on any fuel while in YQF before departing back to YBW.

There was absolutely no reason for this person (I'll use person because they don't deserve the title of pilot on this one) to push weather, limits, and safety to try and land in YQF. This was a case of extreme poor PDM and this person was very lucky to get out alive. Their luck bucket just got a lot lighter, I hope something ended up in their experience bucket.

P.S. they weren't the only 172 to try and get into YQF that day, the other plane was smart enough to divert and not to even try. This was not me by the way.

Lurch

Lurch, no I don't know the conditions of the day or the flight. I am not suggesting what the pilot did was the right course of action necessarily. I don't have a ton of IMC experience, but I have a bit. I agree the weather limits should not be pushed, but weather is not always predictable-it can close down around you. What are you going to do flying over the Canadian Sheild when that happens, there's nowhere to make a precautionary landing, and if you're getting too low to the ground, what are you going to do? That's what I am suggesting. I am not suggesting just going and if the weather gets bad just break the law. My situation i propsed was hypothetical, the idea is the weather was planned to be decent enough and caved in on you to the point where you had to take action. Again, if the option was there to remain VMC, I sure would take that, but not if it left me 100 feet above the tree tops.

[sky's the limit]

Um Randleman,

Weren't you just on another forum asking us about what to do as you're 18 with 300hrs?

Suffice it to say the reaction you're witnessing to your statement is from a good number of people with a great many hours more than you and all the experience that brings with it.

stl

PS The airlines want one type of pilot - those who follow rules. Just a heads up.

[Randleman]

Guys, please don't take my post out of context. I am not referring to the original post or suggesting what that pilot did was right-if he had the fuel to turn around and go home and the weather was better that way, than I agree 100% that's what he should have done.

My situation was purely hypothetical. What WOULD you do if, after taking every precaution to make sure you will be able to safely and legally make the flight, you take off, and things turn on you REAL fast (which is entirely possible). I may not have worded it well in my original post, but if the weather got so bad that I could no longer safely maintain VFR (ex, 100 feet above the trees, dangerously close to terrain, lost, etc.) than I would not hesitate to pull up and go into the clouds-of course I would call ATC and let them know first and even try and get an IFR clearance. Keep in mind I have an IFR rating, and I would only do this in an IFR rated plane, I would never recommend it to a VFR pilot or anyone not flying an IFR machine.

You gotta remember the rules are there to keep you safe, but there are instances where they can turn against you and make things unsafe, and ultimately what makes a pilot is what they do in those situations...does that mean breaking the rules? Well hopefully not, but if you have to to stay safe than do it! Who cares if you have to work through paperwork, I'd rather be alive and have the chance to do the paperwork than never have that chance at all.

[sky's the limit]

Randleman,


Your sole purpose in life as a VFR pilot is to NEVER, EVER, go inadvertent IMC. Ever.

I've had the pleasure of helping peel 4 people from three separate accidents off of frozen lakes, mountainsides, or out of the forest. It's not pretty, but it is a very easy thing to have happen.

The entire art of flying is developing decision making skills so you avoid these types of situations. Concern yourself with thinking about that, it's far more important than what you should do should you find yourself in the type of situation you describe.

Mitigation is the name of the game.

stl

[Lurch]

My situation was purely hypothetical. What WOULD you do if, after taking every precaution to make sure you will be able to safely and legally make the flight, you take off, and things turn on you REAL fast (which is entirely possible). I may not have worded it well in my original post, but if the weather got so bad that I could no longer safely maintain VFR (ex, 100 feet above the trees, dangerously close to terrain, lost, etc.).

See here's the problem, if you ever find yourself in this situation you messed up a long time ago. The key is to have the proper PDM to never get yourself in this situation, turn around early and land.

]than I would not hesitate to pull up and go into the clouds-of course I would call ATC and let them know first and even try and get an IFR clearance. Keep in mind I have an IFR rating, and I would only do this in an IFR rated plane, I would never recommend it to a VFR pilot or anyone not flying an IFR machine

If you ever did this you'd be dead before ATC ever got you that clearance. With your limited IMC experiance I'm guessing you'd be in the trees not long after you entered the base of the cloud layer.

You gotta remember the rules are there to keep you safe, but there are instances where they can turn against you and make things unsafe, and ultimately what makes a pilot is what they do in those situations...does that mean breaking the rules? Well hopefully not, but if you have to to stay safe than do it! Who cares if you have to work through paperwork, I'd rather be alive and have the chance to do the paperwork than never have that chance at all.

Sorry but this part got me the most.

Yes, always do what is required to get your butt back onto the ground safely, but I think when you heard this you took it out of context and are applying this theory incorrectly.

Randleman you are still really young and fresh in this industry, and when the older and seemenly grumpier posters come on here and give you a hard time it's for a good reason. We've seen wide eyed younsters like yourself before and not all of them made it out. We are just trying to give you advise so you get out alive.

Lurch

[Randleman]

Um Randleman,

Weren't you just on another forum asking us about what to do as you're 18 with 300hrs?

Suffice it to say the reaction you're witnessing to your statement is from a good number of people with a great many hours more than you and all the experience that brings with it.

stl

PS The airlines want one type of pilot - those who follow rules. Just a heads up.

I don't disagree with that, but I also am aware that airlines want pilots who will not only follow the rules, but will take action when the safety of the plane is jeapordized-even and especially if it breaks the rules. In fact, if it's what is deemed by the PIC to be safe, it's not illegal. The CARs state that pilots may over rule an air law if it is in the interest of saftey.

As for the experience part of it, this opinion is coming from one of the most senior pilots at Air Canada Jazz, whom I had the pleasure of meeting and having lunch with. Had you told me the same thing 3 months ago I would have fought you, but this is exactly what he told me-it's straight out of the airlines.

[Randleman]

My situation was purely hypothetical. What WOULD you do if, after taking every precaution to make sure you will be able to safely and legally make the flight, you take off, and things turn on you REAL fast (which is entirely possible). I may not have worded it well in my original post, but if the weather got so bad that I could no longer safely maintain VFR (ex, 100 feet above the trees, dangerously close to terrain, lost, etc.).

See here's the problem, if you ever find yourself in this situation you messed up a long time ago. The key is to have the proper PDM to never get yourself in this situation, turn around early and land.

]than I would not hesitate to pull up and go into the clouds-of course I would call ATC and let them know first and even try and get an IFR clearance. Keep in mind I have an IFR rating, and I would only do this in an IFR rated plane, I would never recommend it to a VFR pilot or anyone not flying an IFR machine

If you ever did this you'd be dead before ATC ever got you that clearance. With your limited IMC experiance I'm guessing you'd be in the trees not long after you entered the base of the cloud layer.

You gotta remember the rules are there to keep you safe, but there are instances where they can turn against you and make things unsafe, and ultimately what makes a pilot is what they do in those situations...does that mean breaking the rules? Well hopefully not, but if you have to to stay safe than do it! Who cares if you have to work through paperwork, I'd rather be alive and have the chance to do the paperwork than never have that chance at all.

Sorry but this part got me the most.

Yes, always do what is required to get your butt back onto the ground safely, but I think when you heard this you took it out of context and are applying this theory incorrectly.

Randleman you are still really young and fresh in this industry, and when the older and seemenly grumpier posters come on here and give you a hard time it's for a good reason. We've seen wide eyed younsters like yourself before and not all of them made it out. We are just trying to give you advise so you get out alive.

Lurch

Thanks Lurch, I appreciate it-I really do. I am not trying to look like a hot shot, but I am trying to say that I would not hesitate to take action if I needed to.

That being said, I wouldn't ever put myself in the situation where I had to, but would you not agree that it's possible for the situation to inadvertantly arise? If it ever did I am just saying I would do what is required to get myself on the ground safely-I would never go looking for a reason to break the rules.

I know I don't have experience, which is where I look to older pilots for it. I would never feel comfortable carrying passengers around in a twin in solid IMC for a living in remote areas without some solid FO experience watching a Captain doing it and learning it second hand. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.