Retirement - Split from Hiring

[600RVR]

Ah don't worry about Hiring at AC. By the time Rockie and his group of "fly till you die" are finished you can count on lots of layoffs to accommodate them. Lots of guys will be bumped off equipment. It won't be a fun place to be for a long time. Be sure that you thank these guys for standing up for "human rights" (even though they didn't believe in it till they got to the top). And stalling the careers of not only AC pilots but those wishing to fly for AC, Jazz and even those looking for their first job. Because of this there will be little movement. (except for the bit WJ is creating)

Thanks fly till you die group
Just my 2 cents, because thats all I'll have left after spending 2 years at $37000, and now maybe a layoff to boot.

[all4u]

[quote="600RVR"]Ah don't worry about Hiring at AC. By the time Rockie and his group of "fly till you die" are finished you can count on lots of layoffs to accommodate them.

What do you mean by this?

[babybus]

Ah don't worry about Hiring at AC. By the time Rockie and his group of "fly till you die" are finished you can count on lots of layoffs to accommodate them.

What do you mean by this?

What he means is that if the selfish group that wants to stay on until 65 years old at AC get their way the next 5 years will see complete stagnation at least at AC since there is about 100-150 retirements a year at AC and is one of the reasons why we havn't laid off recently.

[600RVR]

Ah don't worry about Hiring at AC. By the time Rockie and his group of "fly till you die" are finished you can count on lots of layoffs to accommodate them.

What do you mean by this?

Just like I said. The "Fly till you die retired guys" are pushing to return to work. We are in a surplus right now with low monthly flying and lots of LOA's so there would be no layoffs. If they win their case and get to return to work at the top of the list then guess what, Air Canada has to make room and the only way to do that is layoff from the bottom. But this is all for Human Rights of course and for all man kind, nothing to do with greed.

Now I know Rockie and a few more will say that they won and quote alot of legal crap but its still before the human rights and will go to the supreme court. Nothing final yet. So yes this will slow hiring in Canada for everyone

600RVR

[Rockie]

This is what fearmongering creates. Your assumptions are incorrect because there will be an upper limit. Ask your union to build a case for 65 like I've been suggesting which is an easy sell IMO to the CHRT and is fully within their guidelines. They aren't doing that right now and they should have been all along.

There will also be a cutoff date before which pilots will not be permitted to return. I personally think it will be August 28th, 2009 since that's when the CHRT gave their ruling. It might be sometime after, but I think it highly unlikely it will be before. Although as I've also said many times before as well I think there will have to be some settlement paid to the people signed up as complainants.

Now I know Rockie and a few more will say that they won and quote alot of legal crap but its still before the human rights and will go to the supreme court. Nothing final yet. So yes this will slow hiring in Canada for everyone

The CHRT has made their ruling, but remain involved to decide what the remedy will be for the complainants. But they've ruled in favour of the complainants and that will not change. What ACPA is doing now is delaying tactics to hopefully stretch out the date at which they have to implement this ruling in order to advance themselves up the ladder as much as possible in the meantime. That will probably backfire on them and all of us though because the date that counts is August 28th, 2009.

Have you looked into how much more your pension will be yet with an extra five years contribution?

[Glen Quagmire]

Have you looked into how much more your pension will be yet with an extra five years contribution?

Ha, yet another bullshit reason to justify this nonsense. I will be 5 years closer to death, 5 less years with my family, 5 more years of contributions instead of withdrawals, 5 more years of WORK, what a joke for a reason to stay. Retiring at 60 is a perk, we should be fighting over moving the retirement age to 55.

Call this what it is, perceived entitlement. To think the greatest generation gave birth to the most selfish one.

[sepia]

Have you looked into how much more your pension will be yet with an extra five years contribution?

Drooling allover yourself in a retirement home, what a fantastic time to enjoy a maxed out pension.

[barefootpilot]

Also remember that the ruling is going to an appeal( So ruling can be changed) as all the info was not viewed by the courts and that it was based on a one sided perspective.

Some changes are gonna have to occur, Meaning hiring, especially with 767 in YVR since it is getting daily China's back. Don't see them having the crews to cover it and all the other new flying.

We probably get a better idea in March.

[600RVR]

Hey Rockie,

By flying an extra 5 years I would gain $10000 extra in pension. Now if retirement stayed the same I would gain 700 numbers in the next 4 years, become a wide body F/O or EMJ cpt gaining more by doubling my pay, I would also get my best 5 years in as a widebody CPT by the time I'm 60.
Now age 65, I get laidoff, have to guy back into the pension for god knows how many years, (which I couldn't afford because of a layoff) only to return to the bottom as a EMJ F/O, Or stay as an EMJ F/O if no layoffs for another 5 plus years. And get my best 5 years by age 65. Tell me where the benefit and financial gain is?

[the original tony]

600, you are a stupid person aren't you?? Just greedy if you ask me.
Can't you see how wrong your argument is. These poor quarter mill pilots are the ones loosing here.
Your only loss is not having the privelage to fly with them.
They are being forced out in their prime to retire, needless to say for double the money you are making now.
And how selfish of you to even dare at progressing in your career, i mean shit, do you drink to come up with this type of nonsense?
65, 70, 100 whatever, it's here to stay, and don't worry about that layoff, remember.......short term pain is long term gain.
Just tell your bank that, and i guarantee they will have no problems with you defaulting on loans or mortgages.
Trust me.........it's all for your own good. Really, how long can this layoff last? 5 yrs max. Suck it up biznitch, it's either you work or the senior citizens retire. The choice is obvious.
I'm ready to once again put my neck out so the hardest working guys at this company can live well.
Shame on you for not doing the same.

Tony

[Rockie]

Who says you're going to get laid off? And if you are what makes you think it will be this that causes it? Are you also committing yourself to the next higher seat the very moment you can hold it? If you are you are in a minority here because most people wait, and give up large sums of money just so they can get weekends off.

You will likely also get your best five years in as a widebody captain by the time you're 60 because according to historical information your career will be delayed a whole 9 months. Your pension will be better too.

Do you know the normal retirement age for most industries has been 65 for a long time. That's gone now too, but what makes you think you're so hard done by doing the same thing everybody else has had to do? If you're worried about shortening your retirement years go out for a run every now and then and eat right.

But as for the subject of this thread, the sky is not falling in. Hiring might be delayed, but it is not the end of everybody's career so could we please keep this in a little perspective? You're all going to feel silly when the prophecies of doom don't materialize.

[Rockie]

600, you are a stupid person aren't you?? Just greedy if you ask me.
Can't you see how wrong your argument is. These poor quarter mill pilots are the ones loosing here.
Your only loss is not having the privelage to fly with them.
They are being forced out in their prime to retire, needless to say for double the money you are making now.
And how selfish of you to even dare at progressing in your career, i mean shit, do you drink to come up with this type of nonsense?
65, 70, 100 whatever, it's here to stay, and don't worry about that layoff, remember.......short term pain is long term gain.
Just tell your bank that, and i guarantee they will have no problems with you defaulting on loans or mortgages.
Trust me.........it's all for your own good. Really, how long can this layoff last? 5 yrs max. Suck it up biznitch, it's either you work or the senior citizens retire. The choice is obvious.
I'm ready to once again put my neck out so the hardest working guys at this company can live well.
Shame on you for not doing the same.

Tony

While everybody's crying their eyes out and pointing fingers at the people who took this to the CHRT, the world is getting on without you. Those guys aren't exactly trailblazers. Mandatory retirement has been on the way out in Canada for a long time, and I am frankly surprised it took this long for reality to catch up to Air Canada.

It would be nice if people opened their eyes to the world and stopped acting like jilted teenagers.

[600RVR]

Rockie
I'm just stating why this is bad financially, you asked and I replied. I looked up the extra 5 years. The financial Impact to me could be huge, while gaining very little by extending to 65.($10000 remember) I don't think you can dissagree with that can you. And i'm sure yourself being in the bottom 15% with me can realise there is not much to gain for you either. You will be better off financially as well by leaving it at 60. Remember you too will move up 700 numbers into a better paying position. And by doing this you will be able to put away money quicker into an RRSP or some kind of savings. Because you'll be making more. instead of stalling yourself in the bottom PG for longer on way lower pay.
Thats what were here for right.

Just like "fly past 60 don't like making $130000 or more in pension, its financial hardship for them as well, that was one of the reasons that was stated in this lawsuit right. They could be making $200000 plus by staying working 8 days a month.

600RVR

Or am I totally out to lunch

[Rockie]

600RVR

I sense a calmness in you that wasn't there before, and I also believe you're starting to give this some serious thought instead of just reacting. Keep it up.

There will be a definite, guaranteed financial benefit to your pension. What you cannot say though is that elminating mandatory retirement will be detrimental in the short term. It may be detrimental in the short term, but how much and for how long depends on countless variables. Whether or not it is detrimental in the long term is questionable as well if you still decide to leave at 60, but I can guarantee that if you choose to go beyond 60 it won't be. How could it? You're working longer at a higher salary. If you went to 65 (I only say that because that's where this will all settle out IMHO) you will retire with the exact same seniority number you would have before. And your pension would be that much better.

And you will have the choice.

And (this is important) you and ACPA will be complying with the law which will happen regardless of anybody's wishes.

[dtpilot]

This looks oddly familiar... viewtopic.php?f=31&t=60009

Take your arguments back to that thread. There's enough to read there to keep busy on the topic for a few hours...

Sooooo AC hiring in the fall right? Yeeeeeehaawwwwww!

[yycflyguy]

Have you looked into how much more your pension will be yet with an extra five years contribution?

Drooling allover yourself in a retirement home, what a fantastic time to enjoy a maxed out pension.

Uh-oh. I am drooling all over myself now. Does that mean I have to retire?



Nevermind, must just be the Novocain.

[all4u]

What about Air Canada? I've heard that just with those retiring in the next few years it's going to be mighty hard to keep the company running. Extend to 65 and all these guys get even more in pension. Is this a problem?

[Old fella]

Being a past pilot myself and inflicted with the natural tendency of laziness as most of our brethren are - Who the f----- wants to work past 60 yrs of age.

You tell me there are senior citizens(60 yrs of age) who can collect their CCP at a reduced rate are eager to get into the Boeing/Airbus whatever with a smile and blast over the Atlantic/Pacific/South America or domestic across the country/USA. What is their lot in life doing this outside from being part of the cosmic awareness? Is it in inner sanctuary these guys (not girls cause they are smarter) get by being closer to the stars as they gracefully mature to the golden years.

[Rockie]

Being a past pilot myself and inflicted with the natural tendency of laziness as most of our brethren are - Who the f----- wants to work past 60 yrs of age.

You tell me there are senior citizens(60 yrs of age) who can collect their CCP at a reduced rate are eager to get into the Boeing/Airbus whatever with a smile and blast over the Atlantic/Pacific/South America or domestic across the country/USA. What is their lot in life doing this outside from being part of the cosmic awareness? Is it in inner sanctuary these guys (not girls cause they are smarter) get by being closer to the stars as they gracefully mature to the golden years.

You might be living high on the hog Old Fella, but many aren't. Some people have bills to pay because of circumstances beyond their control and need to work. Others just need to work for their own psychological health reasons and that doesn't make them a bad person. How old is Warren Buffet? It's not like he needs the money is it?

Because one person doesn't understand the need or desire to work past a certain age doesn't make the need or desire in another person illegitimate.

[the original tony]

If it had to do with peoples well being, they wouldn't mind moving to another seat, to allow others to work for their well being.
If it was for money, that is not my problem, to keep your cottage, boat, alimony, bike and other hobbies I suffer.
Get over this as being anything more than it is. If this had anything to do with human rights in this day and age it would focus on people who would be paying bills with houses and families. Not retirees trying to milk the cow a little further. You keep saying that this will probably settle at 65, by your own words this is still just horrid to retire at a set age. What extending to 65 does is give these scum bags 5 more years to regroup and figure how 65 is still too young.
Get on with it, bring back everyone under a hundred years of age with a medical as a start, and screw these gifted wide body captains back to FO positions. Let's see how easy it is to swallow when the shoe is on the other foot. Again like you say, its hard to understand why they want to work, any ideas why anyone else would like to work??
Until something completely against their sense of entitlement is shown to them, reality won't strike. Wow i'm not the only pilot in the world, amazing.
When you are already making 3x what our jr guys make to do jack shit , it's easy to sit back and @#$! with everybody else.
As far as the 9 month effect on your career goes, Fancy science can prove an elephant with its tail tied around a rose can hang off a cliff and not fall. I'll believe that when i see it as well.
And from what i know, if Buffet does well, it creates jobs and money, not forcing the american work force to get laid off.

Tony

[Rockie]

Tony

Those guys you hate so much will die before you (unless you give yourself an aneurysm first). Be happy with that and get over it because it isn't really them doing it...it's society.

[the original tony]

Aneuyrsm? i should be so lucky, or atleast my wife!

As far as society, until this case was brought up by those two loveable chaps, was there any real problem with what was going on? people hired, people retired, got their money, went on their merry way.
I don't remember society coming to AC and saying change or die, so not much i can do for ya there.
The first time it was ruled in court, they said go away you greedy whatevers.
Then overturned, so things can change.
by the way....................do i smell burnt toast?
oh crap.

Tony

[Rockie]

Look up mandatory retirement Tony. Every jurisdiction in the country, including federal, is getting rid of it because it is discriminatory. It's amazing Air Canada defied the odds this long, so blaming the people who actually pulled the trigger makes no sense. If it wasn't them it would be someone else. If no one else did it the government is making it illegal anyway. No escape.

I hear you about wives benefiting from the aneurysm. I'm worth far more to my wife dead than alive.

[Old fella]

Being a past pilot myself and inflicted with the natural tendency of laziness as most of our brethren are - Who the f----- wants to work past 60 yrs of age.

You tell me there are senior citizens(60 yrs of age) who can collect their CCP at a reduced rate are eager to get into the Boeing/Airbus whatever with a smile and blast over the Atlantic/Pacific/South America or domestic across the country/USA. What is their lot in life doing this outside from being part of the cosmic awareness? Is it in inner sanctuary these guys (not girls cause they are smarter) get by being closer to the stars as they gracefully mature to the golden years.

You might be living high on the hog Old Fella, but many aren't. Some people have bills to pay because of circumstances beyond their control and need to work. Others just need to work for their own psychological health reasons and that doesn't make them a bad person. How old is Warren Buffet? It's not like he needs the money is it?

Because one person doesn't understand the need or desire to work past a certain age doesn't make the need or desire in another person illegitimate.

I wish I was living on the hog Rockie, old sock. But to your points. I have close to 40 years paying bills, rearing youngins and all the associated activity with daily living and monetary security, so I don't need any reminders about that from anybody, including Air Canada pilots I might add.
A small amount of financial prudence (which is available to all and easily done) put me in a situation that I could retire after 30 odd years. Call it what you will, bold initiative, shithouse luck, keeping my pecker locked up or whatever.
Undoubtly, individuals do have to work beyond a retirement period for financial/pension reasons, self inflicted or whatever but when one hears” Others just need to work for their own psychological health reasons” that floors me. If such people are that inclined they do have serious inner problems. Remind me not to be a passenger on any flight with such pilots – that’s scary big time.
What about those behind the 60 – 65 groups who may/will not get advancement to a better paying position, hence giving them better pension return. Better still what about those young boys/girls who want to become Air Canada Pilots and may not get the opportunity (note the topic of this thread). I say it again, if you don’t need the money get out and make way.
Finally, my generation of baby boomers are greedy. We feel in our moral superiority we built up the country to what it is now (Medicare, flag debate anybody) and now feel we deserve to have it all and want the younger crowd to support us (CCP, old age supplement) while not giving something back to the youngsters – good jobs.
Greedy/miserable bastards we are!!

[circlingfor69]

Rockie,

"Mandatory retirement" implies that one group is forcing another to do something. In Air Canada's case this is not so. Air Canada and ACPA have reached a MUTUALLY agreed upon age of retirement. This is a simple case of democracy winning out. (ie. Majority rules) Using your arguement how are liberals in this country not having their human rights trampled because the Conservatives form our government. Or that 17 years olds having their rights trampled by not being allowed to drink until 18.

You can use all the legal mumbo jumbo and quote from the CHRT ruling all you want. But call a spade a spade here, this is nothing more than a SMALL group of greedy pilots gloming on the an obscure arguement in an attempt to reap a windfall gain on the backs of every other pilot in the company.

Regardless of when the CHRA was drafted, (because we all know you guys love to use that point) were you personally argueing this point when you were 30, 35, 45? I would bet the answer is a big fat NO!!! So spare us all your BS about human rights being violated. Is it a human right to fly airplanes for 250K a year? NO!!!

You new full well when you signed on to fly at AC that you were out the door at age 60. It didn't seem to strike you as such a violation when you were hired. Or I can't imagine someone who is of such high moral fiber as yourself lowering your high standards to work for such a company.