Downwind Takeoff and Landings in DHC-2

[dabeuk]

Hi Guys

I know no float plane likes a tail wind.

However one location that our company runs into is a one way T/O LDG area

For you more experienced Beaver drivers, what is acceptable Tail wind for T/O and LDG.

Im thinking the company I work for may have set this too high myself...

[Bushav8er]

Some companies/pilots do downwind take-offs and landings routinely with no problems (and we have the space), unless its a gale (for water read - white caps).

I never really put a 'number' on it and won't - sorry. If you feel the 'published' limit is to high for you, than for you, it is.

Experience is what makes the difference, and its not necessarily more downwind ops but overall general experience and comfort level.

[Lost Lake]

Bushav8er said it all. I've landed with 20 plus knots tail winds. It's a matter of experience and using your head. Like he says, if you're not comfortable don't do it.

[North Shore]

What Lost and Bush said (and in bold, too!):

if you're not comfortable don't do it.

[pilotidentity]

Depends on the situation

- coming out of a protected bay and have to be airborne at a certain point before you are out into the big swell and broadsided by a big crosswind? Might be a little reluctant there.

Long inlet with a steady wind behind - could do a lot more. If you are heavy remember the Beav has a 1 minute takeoff power limit -I've seen 25kts downwind with a full load on a regular basis as the pilot didn't care to taxi....ouch.

When you say THE COMPANY do you mean management or just the other pilots that think its fine?

[Rowdy]

I've seen the same.. a couple specific guys would take off with big tailwinds just because they didnt want to taxi.. Not sure thats what I'd be doing, even though the airplane may handle it..

Remember.. if you're doing anything outside of the norm. and something goes wrong, regardless of the reasons you give, you'll be the one holding the blame.

[aeroyt]

When you get in the Airplane you are holding the blame. Fly to your limits.

[Mr. North]

Make sure you never use full flap on a beaver while going downwind either. That's a good way to kill yourself right there.

[phillyfan]

Good Lord!! I'm trying to think of a time I would have needed full flaps in a Beaver landing downwind. Gotta think if your setting up for that one, things are already pretty sketchy.
With thousands of hours on both Beavers and Otters in pretty much every province and territory. I have still only used full flap in training. I have never had to use them because it was operationally required.

[Bushav8er]

Good Lord!! I'm trying to think of a time I would have needed full flaps in a Beaver landing downwind. Gotta think if your setting up for that one, things are already pretty sketchy.
With thousands of hours on both Beavers and Otters in pretty much every province and territory. I have still only used full flap in training. I have never had to use them because it was operationally required.

LOL I was going to say something like that too but left it. It is a very rare day indeed when full flaps are needed anytime...training excepted. I rarely went beyond climb flap (except on take off).

[trey kule]

You see the thing is you guys who never use full flaps because you are experienced. You get the job done...safely. No need to impress anybody and challange your own limits.

I have seen so many cases where new , and young beaver drivers come right out of training and then want to do full flap landings virtually all the time....for, as they put it..."shits and giggles". Try and see how short they can put it in..Impresses the passangers..many of them took the time to mention it to management.

Rowdy put it quite well, I thought. Fly outside the norm and , regardless of what the problem was, you are responsible. Wish alot more pilots thought that way.

[cdnpilot77]

My beaver has the flap setting limited to "landing" as max, "full flap" is blocked off, not even an option available to me. My understanding is that this was necessary on the stc for the Baron stol kit having the 5600lb upgross. After a whopping 50hrs on it, haven't needed it yet.

[Rowdy]

I'll agree with the use of full flaps being unneccesary in all but an emergency or training... Why would you purposely scare the shit out of your pax? Where do you seriously ever need to use it operationally? I know I've only ever used it once, and that was because of a poor choice to fly on a shitty day.

Trey, it was something bashed into my head by my father.. "think about how whatever you're doing is going to look on an accident report.. and thats if you're lucky enough to crawl out of it"

[Bushav8er]

I'll add that there is a difference between not needing (under normal situations) full flap and not knowing, or being 'afraid' to use full flap.

To be considered "trained" in my book, I would brief, demonstrate and have the 'student' use full flap under different situations until I was convinced they can handle the A/C. (The briefing included that full flap isn't normally needed)

[trey kule]

to get off topic a bit.

The challange faced in training a new, and relatively inexperienced, pilot, particularily if they are young and eager, is as you so well put it, to know when to use different configurations and procedures.(You did it much more elequently, I am paraphrasing)

Unfortunately, whenever you have a things like a particular configuration that allows for something out of the ordinary, there will always be pilots who, instead of concentrating and perfecting normal stuff will try testing the envelope..It is a real challange to hire people with a mature and responsable attitude that can be trusted with the company's equipment, reputation, and financial well being...Just so many pilots that dont understand it until after the accident.

As to scaring pax. If your company does a survey (excluding the majors) of their pax, I think you would be surprised how many people dont like flying and do it out of necessity.
On the other hand, If you ask most young pilots I think you would find that they think everyone has a deep and unbridled love for all things aviation, and are just waiting to be impressed by their outstanding skills in taking the plane to the edge of its performance envelope. The two differrent perspectives lead to great number of complaints from passangers.

And as a bit of post script. It is not always the flight crew..I swear that someday I am going to lose it and have to be taken off in handcuffs after hearing just one to many of those cutsy little flight attendent jokes......you know which ariline you are....

[DHCdriver]

Downwind Takeoff and Landings in a beaver? WHY

[Lost Lake]

Downwind Takeoff and Landings in a beaver? WHY

Why not? If your comfortable with the plane, it may be the fastest, safest, or only option. As "professional" pilots paid to make money for the company, one of the biggest problems is getting the customers in and out safely and quickly. Why taxi down wind for 8 minutes if you don't have to. Multiply that by 16 legs. Over 2 hr taxiing.
Remember what I said, "if you're comfortable with the plane".

[sarg]

Downwind Takeoff and Landings in a beaver? WHY

So I don't have to take-off at the hill/mountain then turn x-wind/downwind in the lee.

[HS-748 2A]

You see the thing is you guys who never use full flaps because you are experienced. You get the job done...safely. No need to impress anybody and challange your own limits.

I have seen so many cases where new , and young beaver drivers come right out of training and then want to do full flap landings virtually all the time....for, as they put it..."shits and giggles". Try and see how short they can put it in..

Here is a little one of those "Learn from the mistakes of others... "

I knew this accident pilot.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 4c0098.asp

'48

[trey kule]

An interesting read 48. If I may add a comment or two.

1. People continually mention that it is OK to do things if you have the experience. but to get that experience you have to do those things before you have experience. Ergo, you are doing those things that require experience when you dont have any. there is a time a and a place for this. It is called training. Formal training. Not getting experience on revenue flights.
Something that should be empahsized at the end of evey training program and be included in OPS manuals I believe

2. A surprising number of accidents like this happen in the first few weeks of the float season.
There is a lesson to be learned, both from operators and pilots points of view. Get the normal flying under control. dont let pilots try to emulate the senior pilots. Dont let the senior pilots demonstrate their exceptional skilles by showing off...and that is what it is.

3.When I flew in the bush, after a bit someone would do a step taxi. Then another would do it.In a few days planes were screaming up to the dock with engines crackling and popping from being inproperly cooled down. Every year. And every year everyone had to be gathered together and have a little chat about this practice. To this day it bothers me when I read on AvCanada by some how step taxiing is just fine, or that they only use it in exceptional cases...pure BS. anyway, I digress a bit.

4. Lastly, your attachemnt should be printed up by every float operator, with a big red banner on the bottom stating "LEARN FROM THIS", and given to EVERY PILOT (including those experienced ones) at the end of initial or annual training.

Maybe a few will actually understand and learn from it.

5. As to the statement, in bold letters not to do something unless you are comfortable with it, I have been around the business long enough to have seen pilots wreck perfectly good planes and hurt people doing something they should not have done....and they were perfectly comfortable attempting to do it. You should put an adennum stating their are some things you should not try to do even if you are comfortable doing them...self assessment is woefully missing in many pilots, and replaced by an overestimation of their abilities.

[Rowdy]

Thats deffinatly a good read.. and something for everyone to look through before the start of the next foat season. I know of an op. that sits everyone down before the first machine goes back in the water andgoes through a bunch of accident reports and tells a few stories of the buddies lost and aircraft they'd helped recover etc. Always sobering.. but they have a solid safety record... so i'm going out on the limb and saying that this has helped. Well.. that and the 6hr checkouts..

[phillyfan]

Ya the step taxing is a thing of it's own. You tell a guy "hurry, hurry" "but don't step taxi". Next thing you know the guy lands long trying to avoid step taxing and save a couple minutes and puts it into the breakwall.
Everytime I check a guy out who came from somewhere where it was not allowed, they have me squirming in my seat watching the shore come at me.

I can usually tell when a guy asks "why would you ever need to takeoff downwind in a Beaver" That they are pretty new to the game. I suppose if all body's of water were round and clear of rocks and surrounded by flat ground, we would never have to deal with crosswinds in a Beaver either. Sadly however, they are not.

[oldncold]

d/w me limit 7kts otherwise taxi though have never flown on the wet coast in the beav'

full flap only once in operations pipestone river nothern ontario 96 before the musselwhite mine start wind 15 gusting 25 knts out of the ne hot july day/ river current / and rocks lots of rocks! if you did set it in correctly

full load in empty going out . however was advised previously that it was a tight spot . did 4 passes ovr the spot to ensure that it I felt comfortable that it could be done. would never got out of that spot with a full load. unless it was a fling wing /lol

[Blue Side Down]

When it comes to something like a dw takeoff in a beav, this is my advice: if you have to ask about it, you're not ready to take that particular leap of faith. When you're experienced enough to pull off the feat, you won't have to ask about it. Chill, be happy, and take things slower. The ten minutes you save just aren't going to matter come freeze up.

[Blue Side Down]

doubled up oops.