IFR on Floats

[bushhopper]

Lets say you have turbine float plane, and you would like to be able to fly in cloud or over top.

You have a float plane equipped with all IFR goodies, anti ice, whole nine yards.

Lowest minimums to take of VFR of a lake would 1000 feet and 2 sm vis. Take off VFR and go IFR (uncontrolled airspace) and climb through cloud to the top if possible. The higher you are the less fuel your turbine will burn. Let say the flight is 2 hours long, so it would make sense.

When your approaching your destination lake, you would descent to AMA and go VFR if possible and make your landing on the lake.

Is this legal? Could you program a RNAV circling approach down to no precision minimums and try yo get it approved? I am getting mix opinions and some are saying IFR on floats is totally not legal, making me question their knowledge.

I know it would be safe if done right, and I heard some guys would push below AMA minimums, which would make it illegal. Only issue I have is if I had a engine failure , I would be in trouble, but that would be the same situation with a PC-12 on wheels.

You could program the GPS to automatically recognize appropriate lakes for a forced approach based on your glide distance from altitude and offer you a quick form of finding a good lake that you can glide too. I figure it would have to be approved like anything and would take years. But this software would not be a legal requirement so if it is experimental I do not see why you could not use it as a supplemental tool. Google earth images offer accurate measurements of lakes. based on winds the software could find the best possible lake, and increase your survival chance.

Any one would like to pitch in? I know this would be pretty advance IFR flying. But it would be a hell of a fun job.

[Bushav8er]

You need to hold current IFR, training and the company has to be approved in their Ops Cert for IFR, but yes, it has been done (by those that can) You have to have VFR at destination or only descend to min. quadrant altitude, unless you can do an approach at a near by airport (with an approach) and go VFR once down.

No you can't legally 'design' your own approach, unless you go through all the paper work to get it approved.

[kevinsky18]

Your floatplane must also be IFR legal. Note: Any A/C that was piston and now converted to turbine is no longer IFR legal in Canada. So turbine single Otters, Turbine Beavers that were converted etc.

Even a Caravan if it has had the Garrett conversion if no longer IFR legal.

Which draws the question what about 206, 185, 180 etc if they have had an engine up grade to a larger displacement piston engine. . . I don’t know if these are no longer IFR legal as well.

At any rate your list of IFR legal aircraft drops to a small handful.

208 Caravan, Twin Otter, Factory turbine Beaver, Stock 180s, 185, 206 etc.

Though you might be legal with a stock piston floatplane be very wary. Limited climb performance on floats coupled with the ability to collect a lot more ice on the floats, struts etc make piston-float-IFR not recommended.

[Slats]

At any rate your list of IFR legal aircraft drops to a small handful.

208 Caravan, Twin Otter, Factory turbine Beaver, Stock 180s, 185, 206 etc.

I didn't think commercial IFR in single pistons was legal.

[Rowdy]

It was my understanding that the turbine converted machines could be operated IFR, if so equipped, but NOT in a commercial environment..

[bushhopper]

my understanding was that aircraft with turbine STC are illegal for IFR with passengers but with cargo?

Also I am thinking that only twin otter or 208 would ever qualify for this job. 208 is a very popular aircraft world wide and many do operate on floats.

[Bushav8er]

Converted aircraft can be used provided the engine failure rate is, I think, 1:1000, and documented (ie. prove it) for approval. That's how the Caravan got it for Comm. SE IFR.

[SII]

Converted aircraft can be used provided the engine failure rate is, I think, 1:1000, and documented (ie. prove it) for approval. That's how the Caravan got it for Comm. SE IFR.

it's 1:100 000hrs

[Slats]

Seems to be much guessing and misinformation here so this should clear things up:

Converted aircraft cannot be used for SEIFR with passengers, nor can piston aircraft...

723.22 Transport of Passengers in Single-Engined Aeroplanes

The standard for transport of passengers in a single-engined aeroplane under IFR or VFR at night is:

(1) General

(a) only factory built, turbine-powered aeroplanes are permitted;

(b) the turbine-engine of the aeroplane type must have a proven Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) of .01/1000 or less established over 100,000 hours in service;

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... a-2171.htm

[kevinsky18]

I wonder if times from multiple aircraft can be added together to reach the .01/1000 requirment. I'm thinking of the single otter turbine conversion as there are alot of them out there now. If you added all their flight time together you should have enough time to challange that requirment and get approval.

[Expat]

The rules allow for VFR though the top, if I remember...

[StudentPilot]

(a) only factory built, turbine-powered aeroplanes are permitted;

With that little comma in there, could it not be argued that:
a. The aircraft must be factory, and
b. The aircraft must be turbine-powered

Would a lawyer be able to successfully argue that an Otter/Beaver which was built as a certified aircraft in a factory but modified firewall forward to put a turbine on would meet the requirement?

Also, what constitutes "factory built"? Homebuilts in the US need to be 51% done by the owner, could that be extrapolated to a factory built aircraft is built 51%+ at the factory? Any lawyers hiding in the corners?

[GoinNowhereFast]

I think it's understood and generally accepted that the turbine engine has to be installed at the factory. So that means no STC'd turbine conversions.
The only turbine singles that I can see that would work are:
Caravan
factory Turbo Otters
factory Turbo Beavers

The biggest problem I see with commercial float IFR is the fuel reserves required to make it to an alternate. Your caravan on floats can't carry very much anymore once you've loaded it up with 4 or 5 hours of gas. Makes it very expensive and the customer would rather wait for better weather tomorrow.

Also, if you need 1000' and 2sm for take-off, and ceilings above the AMA at the destination, why not just go VFR under? It's perfectly legal to do that in class G

[Bushav8er]

factory Turbo Otters

? You must mean the twin.

[GoinNowhereFast]

factory Turbo Otters

? You must mean the twin.

Nope, the DHC-3T Turbo-Otter. There's very few around that had a PT6 from the factory, so good luck.

The Twin Otter would work for Commercial IFR on floats, but I was speaking specifically about singles.

[Northern Flyer]

factory Turbo Otters

? You must mean the twin.

Nope, the DHC-3T Turbo-Otter. There's very few around that had a PT6 from the factory, so good luck.

The Twin Otter would work for Commercial IFR on floats, but I was speaking specifically about singles.

I could be wrong but I do not believe there where any 3T's from the factory. Cox aviation put PT6's on some way back when, but it was still an STC job. The only two commercial IFR capable float planes that I am aware of are the DHC-6 and a Caravan.

[SII]

what about the aztec?

[Northern Flyer]

what about the aztec?

Didn't even think of the aztec, can't see why not it's an IFR certified aircraft. There are a number of flying boats like the Goose, Mallard and Albatross that should be capable as well.

[GoinNowhereFast]

Any twin that can maintain on one engine would be good for commercial IFR on floats. And, as far as I know, the Aztec Nomad won't maintain altitude. The advertised climb is +50ft/min, so good luck trying to maintain the MSA on a warm summer day.

Although, apparently I was wrong about the Turbo Otters, so maybe I'm wrong here again.

[Cat Driver]

The series 100 Twin Otter on floats could not maintain altitude on one engine, yet we flew them IFR in IMC all the time.

[Bushav8er]

The series 100 Twin Otter on floats could not maintain altitude on one engine, yet we flew them IFR in IMC all the time.

Bet you'd fly that 'risky' PC12 IFR than too huh

[Cat Driver]

Bet you'd fly that 'risky' PC12 IFR than too huh

The Twin Otter on floats had a couple of extra capabilities that a PC12 does not have, it could land on the water and it had a better descent rate than a PC12 with an engine failure.

All our IFR flights were between Vancouver and Victoria and there was no problem finding water to land on if we had to, by the way the flights were center stored so it was dog nuts easy as far as clearances went.

Flying single engine IFR in any flying machine is a risk factor that each individual pilot must decide.

Soon I hope to be flying only the Husky Amphib and a Bell 206 which will both be privately registered........hopefully I will still be able to survive.

[Redneck_pilot86]

I've heard of it being done by shooting an approach to circling mins and then landing on the water within your circling.

[DHCdriver]

factory Turbo Otters

? You must mean the twin.

There were no factory turbine otters, DeHavilland built 466 piston otters. Your thinking of the Beaver, I believe 60 turbo Beavers were built with PT6 with the dash 20 installed, later -27's were added if wanted. I looked everywhere in all my Dehav books to try and find these factory Otters you say were built and I came up empty handed. If there is any truth to this I would love to hear about it. Happy Flying.

[Cat Driver]

I've heard of it being done by shooting an approach to circling mins and then landing on the water within your circling.

We would file out of Vancouver Harbor and do the approach to the Victoria airport and when visual fly to the Victoria Harbor visual.

On the return trip we flew to the Vancouver Airport and once visual on the approach we flew visual to the Vancouver Harbor.

If the weather was really down we landed in the water at either airport.

Worked real well for a schedule airline and allowed us to fly in weather that would have grounded us sometimes.

As far as I know we were the only company in Canada that operated scheds IFR on floats ( Air West Airlines ).