Simple question regarding clearance limit.

[Forestdump]

Flightplan is CYXD drct EPLUR DUVNO 2 ARR CYYC. On the sid from CYXD after several vectors cleared direct EPLUR. If I hear direct EPLUR with nothing else, is that my clearance limit? Just wondering because it happens the other way. "ABC cleared direct YEG". Should it sound like "ABC cleared direct YEG flight planned route?"

[photofly]

Before you took off you got your clearance:
GXYZ is cleared to <clearance limit> via <SID> <route> <altitude if not SID> <Departure instructions> <squawk> <special instructions>

Unless your clearance is revoked in the air you are still cleared to your <clearance limit> as given originally. If SUMFIX is on your cleared route and ATC later says "cleared direct SUMFIX" then you go direct SUMFIX and continue the cleared route (not necessarily the flightplanned route) from there, up to your clearance limit.

Should it sound like "ABC cleared direct YEG flight planned route?"

No. It means "cleared direct YEG then your cleared route as initially given to you".

As far as I know.

[Forestdump]

Interesting. Then why do some clearances sound like "cleared direct SUMSPOT Flight plan route."

[photofly]

For a real answer with MANOPS terminology, you'd need to ask an air traffic controller.

However, distinguish between:

- a controller telling you how far you can fly - by giving you a clearance limit, and an EFC or EAC time unless the limit is your destination, and the controller must insist has to be read back (unless FPR without amendments)

- and an instruction like "cleared direct SUMFIX", which you can just acknowledge "roger" - which is not a "clearance".

If SUMSPOT is an airport then "cleared direct SUMSPOT Flight plan route" sounds like the former in the case that you hadn't already received a full route clearance.

EDIT: read Michael Oxner: http://bathursted.ccnb.nb.ca/vatcan/fir ... Topic.html
Not quite what I was saying, but he's more authoritative than me, obviously.

[husky]

Technically the controller must state "balance of route unchanged" after cleared direct sumspot. Unless you are given hold instructions or there is some ambiguity in the instruction, the controller would expect you to continue with the original clearance after the intermediate direct routing even though to be correct they should be stating "balance of route unchaged". If in doubt ask. No matter how many rules and official phraseologies they come up, we are just communicating, and we all know sometimes there is a failure to communicate.

[parrot_head]

and an instruction like "cleared direct SUMFIX", which you can just acknowledge "roger" - which is not a "clearance".

We require a readback if issuing or relaying a clearance or instruction.

[photofly]

@parrot_head: Is "GXYZ cleared SUMSPOT" a clearance or an instruction?

[Go Juice]

Clearance: "GXYZ cleared SUMSPOT"

Instruction: "GXYZ, Fly direct SUMSPOT"

[stofer]

From the big blue book:

Air Traffic Control Clearance - An authorization issued by an ATC unit for an aircraft to proceed within controlled airspace in accordance with the conditions specified by the unit, and;

Air Traffic Control Instruction - A directive issued by an ATC unit for ATC purposes.

Under notes for instruction it adds "action verbs in the imperative mood includes words such as stop, follow, climb or maintain"

Either way, we require a readback for both, "roger" won't cut it.

CB

[photofly]

Either way, we require a readback for both, "roger" won't cut it.

OK, noted. Although regardless of what you say, Tower here only insists on a readback for a full clearance.

EDIT: perhaps I'm being unfair to the Tower controllers by thinking more of VFR flight instructions ("fly north of the shoreline" etc) for which they don't seem to care about a readback.

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

Only VFR read backs required are for HOLD SHORT instructions. Anything else does not require a read back. In some cases controller may look for one only to ensure you understand what is requires/expected.

[kevenv]

An instruction is "turn right heading 220" or "descend 6000" or "reduce now to 180 kts"

A clearance is "cleared direct VLV flight planned route" or "cleared RNAV 21 approach"

In either case, as has been noted above, I need a read back.

[Shadowfax]

Technically - if you are cleared (IFR) direct a point (whether on the flight plan or not) with out further instructions afterwards - that is now you clearance limit (limit meaning do not go past go - do not collect $200). 5 minutes before that point ATC should give you further or you can anticipate/enter a hold. They do not have to specify an EFC or EAC when issuing the direct. Most mil pilots will follow this to a tee.

In reality, controllers can forget the "flight plan route", "balance of flight plan unchanged", or "on course" after the direct to point. Most times this is to alleviate frequency congestion, ATC workload or perhaps bad habits.

Its tricky to say "if in doubt check it out" cuz that, in some circumstances, might just seem silly. Enter a hold in busy airspace and s%$t will hit the fan! Most the big boys know when to ask (most international carriers will!) - it's the youngins that got to figure it out. If your flying small stuff in questionable RADAR coverage I wouldn't hesitate to ask "confirm F/P after sumspot".

My 2C

[photofly]

5 minutes before that point ATC should give you further or you can anticipate/enter a hold.

"Cleared direct sumspot", acknowledged, and you never hear from ATC again - how long should you hold?

[kevenv]

"Cleared direct sumspot", acknowledged, and you never hear from ATC again - how long should you hold?

You tell us. What do your lost comm procedures say you should do?

[photofly]

RAC 6.3.2., and RAC 8.10.

According RAC 8.10, after "cleared direct sumspot" and nothing more, you should fly to sumspot, hold, and attempt to contact ATC. If you cannot contact ATC, proceed according to RAC 6.3.2. Since you have no EFC, you should leave the hold immediately and fly your previously cleared route, expected route or flight planned route.

So the answer is, only as long as you need to come to the conclusion that you you have lost comms.

[kevenv]

RAC 6.3.2., and RAC 8.10.

According RAC 8.10, after "cleared direct sumspot" and nothing more, you should fly to sumspot, hold, and attempt to contact ATC. If you cannot contact ATC, proceed according to RAC 6.3.2. Since you have no EFC, you should leave the hold immediately and fly your previously cleared route, expected route or flight planned route.

So the answer is, only as long as you need to come to the conclusion that you you have lost comms.

Good to see we are on the same page. In all seriousness, as has been noted, it takes no time at all to reply with "cleared direct sumfix and confirm FPR after?". I know a lot of my posts come back to this, but sloppy phraseology by us is the cause of most uncertainty and / or ambiguity.