Corrective Action Plans
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Corrective Action Plans
I need some rare advice from some of the other CFI's. I am the CFI of a small, one airplane school/flying club. We have been around for a couple years. In 2 years, we have generated a total of 2 CADOR. Both were within the past 6 months and both were students on solo flights. Both were silly screw ups that student pilots make. Our POI requested a corrective action plan. I am very familiar with things like root cause analysis, etc. as I studied aviation safety in university.
Unfortunately, our POI has rejected both CAP's, twice now, because they fail to state a root cause and identify the "cultural and/or structural failures of the system." TC has simply sent us a form letter that they send to every operator when they get a CADOR's.
I am very familiar with SMS, but in my opinion, TC is abusing the principles of the SMS system. There is only so much analysis that can be done when a solo student pilot makes a stupid mistake.
What do some of you CFI's do for corrective action plans for student errors? Would anyone be willing to send me an sample one that has been accepted? What's the worst they can do if I don't submit another CAP? They're already doing an audit in a couple months. I'm on the verge of writing them a letter telling them to pound sand. We haven't broke any CAR's.
Unfortunately, our POI has rejected both CAP's, twice now, because they fail to state a root cause and identify the "cultural and/or structural failures of the system." TC has simply sent us a form letter that they send to every operator when they get a CADOR's.
I am very familiar with SMS, but in my opinion, TC is abusing the principles of the SMS system. There is only so much analysis that can be done when a solo student pilot makes a stupid mistake.
What do some of you CFI's do for corrective action plans for student errors? Would anyone be willing to send me an sample one that has been accepted? What's the worst they can do if I don't submit another CAP? They're already doing an audit in a couple months. I'm on the verge of writing them a letter telling them to pound sand. We haven't broke any CAR's.
Re: Corrective Action Plans
I'm sorry I can't help with the paperwork, but will you explain what the students' errors were?
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Corrective Action Plans
Sure.
Student 1: Over rotated, climbed out at 50KIAS, couldn't climb well, declared an emergency because he thought the engine wasn't putting out enough power, figured out he was too slow and than climbed out regular airspeed, cancelled emergency because he realized his mistake.
Student 2: Crossed hold short line without clearance on first solo.
Only 2 CADORS in 2 years.
Student 1: Over rotated, climbed out at 50KIAS, couldn't climb well, declared an emergency because he thought the engine wasn't putting out enough power, figured out he was too slow and than climbed out regular airspeed, cancelled emergency because he realized his mistake.
Student 2: Crossed hold short line without clearance on first solo.
Only 2 CADORS in 2 years.
- Shiny Side Up
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Re: Corrective Action Plans
A few questions for you just to clarify. First, when you say
Second, can we assume that both of these CADORs were ones that reccomended corrective action?
I will have to dig through my files to find my own examples of ones they've accepted, so I'll get back to you on that.
Do you mean fail to state both the root cause and fail to identify the cultural and/or structural failures of the system? Or do you mean fail to state the root cause and that your responses have only identified the cultural and/or structural failures of the system?because they fail to state a root cause and identify the "cultural and/or structural failures of the system."
Second, can we assume that both of these CADORs were ones that reccomended corrective action?
I will have to dig through my files to find my own examples of ones they've accepted, so I'll get back to you on that.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
Re: Corrective Action Plans
Shiney,
Yes that a root cause was not identified and that the structural failures were not identified.
Yes those are the only 2 CADOR's we have ever had and are the subject of the CAP's.
Yes that a root cause was not identified and that the structural failures were not identified.
Yes those are the only 2 CADOR's we have ever had and are the subject of the CAP's.
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Re: Corrective Action Plans
Well if you want to PM me what you have sent already for CAPs I can tell you hopefully what they're looking for, I'll send you some of the ones I've sent before as what we've done. I've had this trouble before - usually the guy at TC has something specific in mind he wants to see regarding changing your training and what you're going to do about it, but he won't tell you what he has in mind. It would probably be easier to guess what his favorite color is.
I did learn one thing that won't help you now, but will in the future. Keep track of whenever you do have a CADOR come up, you can sometimes head off having to submit a CAP, if you phone them first and remedy the problem before it starts generating paperwork.
I did learn one thing that won't help you now, but will in the future. Keep track of whenever you do have a CADOR come up, you can sometimes head off having to submit a CAP, if you phone them first and remedy the problem before it starts generating paperwork.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
Re: Corrective Action Plans
Bede, I will play the devils advocate here.
First of all, these asre serious enough to warrant a CADORS. Secondly , if I understood, they happened close together.
Thirdly..."stupid student mistakes" is not a rational for a potentail runway excursion. Also it may be that the good ATC folks have been accomodating in the past and decided the situation was getting serious. Not suggesting , but take a heck of a close look at your operation, your supervision of student, and particulairly ppre flight briefings for olo flight before you write them off as "boys will be boys mistakes"
The other thing is you got a dickhead at TC. There are some, but the fact that they are continuing to ask for a root cause would tell me they have a different perspective on this whole matter than you.
Lastly,,,I was reading the CADORS for September. They really are getting out of hand. Two CADORS for missed approaches! And my favorite fo rthe month...VOR U/S generated a CADORS...Action...Notamed off. And yes, I read the CADORs to see if there is anything in their we can use in our own operations to learn from. They really are morphing into a nightmare.
Anyway, best of luck
First of all, these asre serious enough to warrant a CADORS. Secondly , if I understood, they happened close together.
Thirdly..."stupid student mistakes" is not a rational for a potentail runway excursion. Also it may be that the good ATC folks have been accomodating in the past and decided the situation was getting serious. Not suggesting , but take a heck of a close look at your operation, your supervision of student, and particulairly ppre flight briefings for olo flight before you write them off as "boys will be boys mistakes"
The other thing is you got a dickhead at TC. There are some, but the fact that they are continuing to ask for a root cause would tell me they have a different perspective on this whole matter than you.
Lastly,,,I was reading the CADORS for September. They really are getting out of hand. Two CADORS for missed approaches! And my favorite fo rthe month...VOR U/S generated a CADORS...Action...Notamed off. And yes, I read the CADORs to see if there is anything in their we can use in our own operations to learn from. They really are morphing into a nightmare.
Anyway, best of luck
Accident speculation:
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Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Corrective Action Plans
Bede,
You need to get with the new world order on how to respond to Transport in this situation. First of all as CFI you bear some responsibility for the position your solo students have found themselves in. That being said I can't help but wonder if you took any action to remedy these errors your students made at the time they were brought to your attention. So when your POI asked for a Corrective Action Plan He/She was following the procedure that is layed out in SUR-001 that requires a Root Cause analysis to be submitted with a Corrective Action Plan ( if there isn't one the CAP gets rejected - no questions asked), this gives the POI some idea that you took the time to not only identify what caused this but, also what you may need to do to stop it from happening in the future. You may want to take some time out of your busy schedule and sit down to read SUR-001 v4 Section 10.4 that deals specifically with how you are to respond with your CAP and how Transport is to deal with it.
Hope this helps clear up the mystery.
Regards
You need to get with the new world order on how to respond to Transport in this situation. First of all as CFI you bear some responsibility for the position your solo students have found themselves in. That being said I can't help but wonder if you took any action to remedy these errors your students made at the time they were brought to your attention. So when your POI asked for a Corrective Action Plan He/She was following the procedure that is layed out in SUR-001 that requires a Root Cause analysis to be submitted with a Corrective Action Plan ( if there isn't one the CAP gets rejected - no questions asked), this gives the POI some idea that you took the time to not only identify what caused this but, also what you may need to do to stop it from happening in the future. You may want to take some time out of your busy schedule and sit down to read SUR-001 v4 Section 10.4 that deals specifically with how you are to respond with your CAP and how Transport is to deal with it.
Hope this helps clear up the mystery.
Regards
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And Trey exposes one of the main reasons it takes way longer to train a pilot. Everyone's afraid of these CADORS being sent to them.
Now Bede's not going to let anyone solo anymore until they have about 50 hours demonstrating they won't get nervous and cross the freakin hold line.
Now Bede's not going to let anyone solo anymore until they have about 50 hours demonstrating they won't get nervous and cross the freakin hold line.