Training agreement after the training?

[PT6Lover]

Hi,

I have a problem with a recent situation I'm facing. I work for a company that asks pilots to sign a training agreement for X amount of dollars. A few weeks ago I was interviewed for a position on a new aircraft and during the interview, the interviewer asked me if I took the position how long I would stay in the company, I said my intention was not to leave any time soon as I was not looking to go anywhere else. There was no specific mention of a training agreement during the interview, although as I have heard, all new hires or initial upgrades are asked to sign a training agreement. A little while longer I was booked for my Sim, I went and came back, did the flight test, and completed my line indoc. I have now completed my line indoc and I have been asked to sign the training agreement.

My problem here is that the contract should have been presented to me BEFORE the training even began so I would have the option to read it and decide to sign or not.

My gut reaction is to refuse, my fear is to lose my job?

I feel like this is an opportunity to set some standards for all of us who get bullied into these situations, if they wanted me to sign a contract for training, it should have been shown to me before not after, where I now have no options.

Any input or similar situations would be appreciated.
Thanks

[sky's the limit]

I had a similar situation over a decade ago, and I simply refused to sign. Well, not 100% true... I explained in detail my reasons for not signing, including my issues with it and that there was no mention prior to training. In the end they agreed, and I gave my word I would stay for the length of time I had originally agreed. Everyone was happy.

Obviously I have nothing vested in your situation, but imho if people don't take opportunities like this to take a stand against these things, nothing will change.

My $0.02

stl

[PT6Lover]

Thanks for sharing STL

I was curious if others had faced similar situations. Your reaction to the same problem was pretty much what I was thinking about doing as well.

If we want to have standards then we have to make sure to set them.

Cheers,

[flyinthebug]

PT6Lover...Tell them its a little late to be negotiating a contract now! You are 100% correct it was up to the company to bring this to your attention PRIOR to training. It seems to me that you`ve already been trained there on another machine? Why wasnt that contract re-negotiated?
Bottom line is you have the training now and they have accumulated the cost of your training. Id expect they really have no choice now but to take you at your word. In the old days, thats all it took. Sadly, we`ve become an industry where young pilots fly for free or next to nothing...just to make the right seat in a -8 where they continue to make crap money. If this contract was so important to the company, they would have made their intentions clear from the get go. Dont let someone`s after thought drag you into a lengthy contract you didnt even know existed.
And as an FYI, im speaking from a management perspective. We had contracts at my former employer, but they were discussed openly and honestly when a candidate was ready for upgrade. We NEVER took a single dollar from a pilot, only asked they sign a 1 year commitment if we paid for the training and PPC. It was a fair contract, and one presented prior to any training. I believe you should have been afforded the same courtesy.
Fly safe all.

[Bobby868]

Why sign it? They want an assurance that you won't take your PPC and run. So here's your chance to show them that your word is just as good as a signed piece of paper and or a bond.

It's also their chance to show you how they'll treat you as a respected employee and not hold you and your money hostage.

Mutal respect should be holding employee and employer together not signed contracts and bonds especially when the contract is completely one sided and the employee has little hope of getting their bond back if the employer decides to terminate the agreement.

I've heard several reports out there in recent months of a certain company abusing these contracts and bonds. To my fellow pilots all I can say is if given the chance, give and expect in return respect and say no to any form of bonding.

[KK7]

I wouldn't see the point in them firing you because you wouldn't sign a training agreement after the fact. The whole point of the agreement would be to keep you to use the training they invested in. By firing you they are doing exactly what they are hoping to avoid.

Also, if you're no longer in your probationary period with this company it wouldn't be just cause to fire someone for not signing a training agreement.

[flyingcatfish]

Tell them sure, I'll sign it after we re-negotiate my raise, then walk out

[who me ?]

I would not sign it.
If they lay you off it is then constructive dismissal

[Doc]

Don't sign a thing. Assure them (verbally) that your intentions have not changed. You still don't intend to go anywhere as previously discussed and assure them that you are a man of your word. Then, be a gentleman and honour your commitment. On their side of the fence, they've already paid the bills, there is nothing to be gained by getting rid of you (isn't that the whole idea of this bond bull shit in the first place? To KEEP pilots???) if you're doing a good job for them. Their lack of planning is not your problem.

[photofly]

For myself, I would sign a piece of paper that said exactly (and only) what I had already verbally agreed to in an interview. There being no difference between me agreeing something verbally and putting my name behind it in writing, there would be no point in refusing. But I wouldn't agree to be bound by anything beyond what was agreed.

Incidentally, it might be worth confirming in writing, or by email, exactly what you did agree to verbally, so there can be no argument about it later.

Difficult to do that perhaps without sounding stroppy, but doable.

[shitdisturber]

That's what I love about the company I'm working at now. I leave for sim training next week for my first jet course; no bond mentioned, nor do I think one exists. In my case, it doesn't matter anyway because I'm not going anywhere. I'm not even looking. Why would I? I'm happy where I am, I'm well treated, there's absolutely no incentive for me to leave.

[TeePeeCreeper]

For myself, I would sign a piece of paper that said exactly (and only) what I had already verbally agreed to in an interview. There being no difference between me agreeing something verbally and putting my name behind it in writing.
Incidentally, it might be worth confirming in writing, or by email, exactly what you did agree to verbally, so there can be no argument about it later.
.

Why would you even do that? Your word is your word. No agreement in terms of a contract means just that. It's a gentleman's agreement. Putting anything on paper when it comes to a gentleman's agreement is an oxymoron at this point.

How many training offers, and how long have you been in this industry if I may ask Photofly?

To the OP:

You've got the upperhand. Make good with it and unless your safety is in jeapordy, honnor your word. At the end of the day, your integrity as a whole matters most in this industry imho.

Regards,
TPC

[photofly]

Because there's no reason not to. It would make no difference to me whether it's written or verbal. That being the case, If it makes a difference to the other party then there's no reason not to oblige them.

Also if you do write it down they can't "misunderstand" it in six months' or two years' time.

I don't work in aviation. Is keeping one's word and/or being exploited by an employer somehow different in the aviation industry to other areas of employment?

[TeePeeCreeper]

There's nothing to "missunderstand" photofly. Nothing in writting means just that. Why would you put anything on paper when it's not to your advantage? Regardless there's no need to unless you've got a vested intrest at stake, in this case I don't see any reason...

So once again, how many training agreements have you personally come across and what's your level of actual knowledge when it comes to this issue Photofly? I only ask because what you wrote is indicative of someone whom may have a solid grasp of what the right thing an individual should do, but your response seems to indicate that you've no practical experience in the matter.... Remember the thread where you told everyone that you were sure that a 180 had an elevator trim tab?

[photofly]

There's nothing to "missunderstand" photofly. Nothing in writting means just that. Why would you put anything on paper when it's not to your advantage? Regardless there's no need to unless you've got a vested intrest at stake, in this case I don't see any reason...

There are lots of things that an employer can misunderstand. Here's an example:

Employer: "Mr. Pilot: although we didn't have a written agreement, you assured us at interview that you would be staying with us for at least five years. Seeing as you now want to leave after three, we don't feel that you've lived up to your commitment."

Pilot: "Mr. Employer, I think if you recall, I said I would be here for at least two years. I've more than fulfilled my end of out agreement."

That kind of situation can be avoided when commitments and guarantees by either side are put in writing.

So once again, how many training agreements have you personally come across and what's your level of actual knowledge when it comes to this issue Photofly? I only ask because what you wrote is indicative of someone whom may have a solid grasp of what the right thing an individual should do, but your response seems to indicate that you've no practical experience in the matter.... Remember the thread where you told everyone that you were sure that a 180 had an elevator trim tab?

As I said, I don't work in aviation. I don't think I can be any clearer.

On the other hand I have had my fair share of awkward situations where a verbal commitment by one side or other wasn't documented (either accurately, or at all) and it has come back to bite the person who made that commitment. Is there something about the aviation industry that means this can't or won't occur?

And yes, I do remember thinking that the 180 had a trim tab. Quite honestly I'm delighted to have been corrected. In that thread, in this tread, and in all threads I've ever posted in, I'm pleased both to offer an opinion and to learn from others' knowlege and experience in their comments on what I wrote. The day I stop learning by posting and reading here is the day I shall stop.

[TeePeeCreeper]

[quote="photofly"] There are lots of things that an employer can misunderstand. Here's an example:

Employer: "Mr. Pilot: although we didn't have a written agreement, you assured us at interview that you would be staying with us for at least five years. Seeing as you now want to leave after three, we don't feel that you've lived up to your commitment."

Pilot: "Mr. Employer, I think if you recall, I said I would be here for at least two years. I've more than fulfilled my end of out agreement."

That kind of situation can be avoided when commitments and guarantees by either side are put in writing. [quote]

That's a poor example... And dosen't make any sense! If you've nothing "on paper" How can an employer come back and say "but the terms of our agreement was". A verbal agreement is just that. If both parties honnor the agreement, than all is well. In the OP's case, a bond/training note seems to be a one sided "protect the employer" thing... In this case why the hell would you encourage the OP to put ANYTHING in wrtting???? Whatever he puts in writting would serve him no purpose whatsoever. That is why I am calling you out on your fundamental lack of understanding, and honestly believe that you are giving the OP uninformed information which is to his/her disadvantage.

[quote]As I said, I don't work in aviation. I don't think I can be any clearer[quote]

No your right, you couldn't make yourself any "clearer". Don't you think that someone whom is not employed, or expirienced in the industry shouldn't be giving advice on a matter that they admit little knowledge of? I keep seeing you running your mouth in several threads when you've hardly any clue as to what your talking about.... Something I hope you will ponder in the future....?.


[Quote]And yes, I do remember thinking that the 180 had a trim tab. Quite honestly I'm delighted to have been corrected. In that thread, in this tread, and in all threads I've ever posted in, I'm pleased both to offer an opinion and to learn from others' knowlege and experience in their comments on what I wrote. The day I stop learning by posting and reading here is the day I shall stop[quote].

Great! I sincerely hope that you therefore understand that my comments were not an attempt to personally attack you, but rather inform you of an insider's point of view. I sincerely hope that I have done so graciously and without insult.
Wish you all the best!
Regards,
TPC

[again]

Follow through on your word to stay however long you initially agreed to stay, but Don't sign the bond now!

They won't fire you. The bond is their way of ensuring they get a return on the investment they made in you, and firing you wouldn't be a good way of achieving that.

[photofly]

That's a poor example... And dosen't make any sense! If you've nothing "on paper" How can an employer come back and say "but the terms of our agreement was".

How? Because they misunderstood or misremembered what you said at interview.

I didn't actually encourage the OP to do anything; I only said what I would do. Which is not to sign the bond, but to write down if asked, what I said I'd do at the interview. I understand you'd do differently. I'm still not clear why.

In terms of experience, I have signed a training and franchise agreement in the past. Everything was well documented (on both sides) and it worked out well. I've also written many agreements for freelance work where I was very clear to document exactly the extent of the promises I gave the customer at interview, even when they weren't concerned to have it in writing at the time. I could have left the details out, but just in case it became an issue of "he said, she said" later on, I wanted it written down. To document my commitments protected me from the risk of an unhappy customer and poor word-of-mouth afterwards.

Perhaps that doesn't have any applicability in this case. I'm sure the OP will be able to make up their own mind.

[Doc]

photofly, relax mate. You're not alone. Lots of you fools still don't get it. DONT SIGN ANYTHING! Be a good guy and honour your commitments, but leave your pen at home. Why is this so hard for some to understand? Why would you want to back up a verbal agreement with something in writing?? The companies don't just "jot something down".......they have lawyers write their "agreements", bonds etc. Are you a lawyer? No? Then why are you such eager beavers to put all the balls in the employer's court? We live in a country, where you should be free to make decisions as to where you work, when you leave an employer for another one etc. You don't have these freedoms in the aviation industry. You've given away that freedom. Be proud. Be a slave. An indentured servant.
Perhaps in the very near future there will be a shortage of pilots, and you fools will still be buying jobs and signing bonds. Guess I'll never understand it?

[5x5]

Strange to me why so many people here seem adamant about "give your word and keep it" yet completely opposed to signing a document saying the same thing. Not something different like a financial commitment (unless you agreed verbally to that) or actually paying up front (unless you also agreed verbally to that).

Seems like the only reason would be that your word is maybe not so great. If you give your word that you're going to stay for two years, how is it different from signing a document saying that you will stay for two years? Does it feel easier to wiggle out of a verbal commitment because you can justify/rationalize breaking it because the company didn't treat you right or hurt your feelings? Whereas a signed piece of paper raises the spectre of actually being held to your agreement somehow by forces outside of your conscience and sense of integrity?

Or maybe it's that this super, duper great new job "came along" that you just can't pass up? (Why were you sending out resumes if you were in the middle of a commitment?)

If the written agreement is full of terms or conditions or legalese that you didn't actually discuss, then request that it's simplified to just state what you actually agreed to - both sides. If they aren't willing to do that, then certainly consider walking. Anyone who expects you to sign an agreement with terms that weren't fully discussed and agreed to isn't worth working for, whether you sign it or not.

[Brown Bear]

Keep signing those bonds, you fools. No other industry pulls this shit. No other group of workers are brain dead enough to allow it!!

[5x5]

No other industry has the same guaranteed flow-through of employees that aviation does either, especially at the lower levels. Nor do they have the same level of up-front expenses (as a percentage of overhead) associated with bringing a new employee online. If you want to compare to other industries you have to look at the whole picture, not one issue or point of view.

And I'm not saying that bonds and such are necessarily good ideas, but they tend to be brought on by all the pilots who gave their "word" and it turned out to be worthless.

[Doc]

No other industry has the same guaranteed flow-through of employees that aviation does either, especially at the lower levels. Nor do they have the same level of up-front expenses (as a percentage of overhead) associated with bringing a new employee online. If you want to compare to other industries you have to look at the whole picture, not one issue or point of view.

And I'm not saying that bonds and such are necessarily good ideas, but they tend to be brought on by all the pilots who gave their "word" and it turned out to be worthless.

If you run an airline, or any other business, training your people is part and parcel with the cost of doing business. If you can't afford to train your people, you have no right to be in business in the first place.
Any business, in any industry, that treat their employees the way some companies in this industry do, deserve a "guaranteed flow-through" of employees. Why should a pilot hang around a company that treats them like shit????

[floatplanepilot]

Had something similar. We were sent to the US training and had not started it yet. We were sent the contract in the hotel. Lots of things had changed in the contract that we had not expected. We refused to sign and negotiated the contract with very favorable conditions.

[BE20 Driver]

Bonds are not enforceable unless you have ample opportunity to review said contract with your lawyer prior to signing (or waive that right in writing).
I'm not suggesting that you use this as an opportunity to weasel out of what you originally agreed to but just know that the contract they put in front of you after your training is complete isn't worth the paper it is written on.
What ever you do, don't back date your signature. I know a buddy that got royally screwed that way.