Would you want the WJ pilot's contract?

[Bede]

T4's are coming out and it seems a lot of my WJ friends are pleasantly surprised with what they earned. FO's average $100-120k (guy on other thread made $150k), Captains around $200k. On the other side, AC pilots are lamenting their low wages (see Mediator resigns thread) alluding that many other pilots make more.

If you like the WJ contract, Bede has the solution to the AC contract talks- walk in to negotiations and tell them you want the WJ pilot contract. Would AC pilot's want it? Would management go for it if it meant winding up the pension?

Here are the details:
Pay as per http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... stjet.html
Work 14-16 days/mo (16 max)
Ability to get rid of flying, pick flying up, customizing your schedule
No seniority for vacation/bidding
No reserve, lot's of overtime (1.5x) if you want to make extra cash
Profit share 2x/yr (a bit less than a paycheque)
$3000 shares or $7000 in stock options per year
4-6 weeks vacation per year
No pension
Company match up to 20% in airline stock (don't worry- you can sell after a year)
No min day credit, paid DH, etc
Very flexible work rules, but crew sched never takes advantage of this

[TopperHarley]

Theres some good things in the WJ contract. Some bad things too (i.e. you have to pay for your own parking pass, generally short layovers at hotel airports, no hotel provided during training, etc). The contract you guys have works well for WJ, it might not necessarily work well in a large company like AC though.

I hope AC can improve upon the contract they have now. I highly doubt things like status pay and no seniority bidding would ever be accepted at AC. Im sure it'll be worse than WJ in some regards, but better in others.

[yycflyguy]

67% of the membership said No to a Westjet-style when they rejected the TA last May. It doesn't work with our management "team".

[Bede]

Theres some good things in the WJ contract. Some bad things too (i.e. you have to pay for your own parking pass, generally short layovers at hotel airports, no hotel provided during training, etc). The contract you guys have works well for WJ, it might not necessarily work well in a large company like AC though.

I hope AC can improve upon the contract they have now. I highly doubt things like status pay and no seniority bidding would ever be accepted at AC. Im sure it'll be worse than WJ in some regards, but better in others.

Company pays for our parking pass, even for commuters. Layovers are good in my opinion, probably average 14-16 hrs and are at decent hotels. Hotel is not provided during training because we all "live" in Calgary.

[777longhaul]

It is NOT the pilots that need the WJ contract, IT is the Senior Management at AC that needs WJ senior management contract, and the staffing levels that go with it. Would love to see the WJ senior management pay scales, benefits, pension, indexing, etc vs AC.

Anyone got that info?

The pilot pay at AC is less than 4% of the cost. What is the senior managment %? What is the ratio of senior management, to pilots, at WJ and at AC, and at Southwest?

[TopperHarley]

The parking pass issue probably applies to pilots who take advantage of the port system. One guy was telling me the company takes $100/month of his paycheque for parking out of yyz.

I find the hotel issue in initial training a big issue, but there's lots of good things in the WJ contract that compensate for the bad.

[Norwegianwood]

Not to mention the real bonus........ You can fly past 60....... NO problem o
Hey that's 5+ more really productive years at the trough!
AND at full pay and in the correct seat

[whiteguy]

The parking pass issue probably applies to pilots who take advantage of the port system. One guy was telling me the company takes $100/month of his paycheque for parking out of yyz.

I find the hotel issue in initial training a big issue, but there's lots of good things in the WJ contract that compensate for the bad.

Question, at AC if your position is YYZ based RP and your training is in YYZ, are you supplied a hotel room?

[Sea2Sky]

I assume you're talking about new hire training, and the answer is 'yes'. In fact, they require you to use the hotel room during training. They want you focused and part of the group.

[Donald]

T4's are coming out and it seems a lot of my WJ friends are pleasantly surprised with what they earned. FO's average $100-120k (guy on other thread made $150k), Captains around $200k.

I'm not an AC guy.

I am curious though....how much OT is required to make these numbers happen?

5 days/month?

10 days/month?

[danewf]

I am a 6 year F/O at WJ. Other than my first 2 years I have just cracked 6 figures each of the last 3 years. I do the 20% plus a bit of OT

Working conditions are great...training is second to nobody...FLICA is amazing when you understand it.

Wether you like it or not management is open and honest...as much as they can it seems.

We have our issues just like any other airline, but I wouldn't trade this job for anything.

[whiteguy]

I assume you're talking about new hire training, and the answer is 'yes'. In fact, they require you to use the hotel room during training. They want you focused and part of the group.

Yes. And thanks!

[ogopogo]

It is NOT the pilots that need the WJ contract, IT is the Senior Management at AC that needs WJ senior management contract, and the staffing levels that go with it. Would love to see the WJ senior management pay scales, benefits, pension, indexing, etc vs AC.

Anyone got that info?

The pilot pay at AC is less than 4% of the cost. What is the senior managment %? What is the ratio of senior management, to pilots, at WJ and at AC, and at Southwest?

difficult to compare -- AC is an international outfit, WJ is principally domestic/US/Carrib

AC Revenue ~$9B, Net Income $107M. Chmn comp $325K, CEO comp $4550K. Many, many VPs.
WJ Revenue ~$3B, Net Income $149M. Chmn comp $406K, CEO comp $2627K. Not so many VPs.

[Bede]

Ogopogo,

From my understanding, EVP's make about $1M including bonuses and stock options. Below the EVP is the VP Flight Ops, Directors (of Standards, Technical), Various Chief Pilots and standards pilots at the bottom. Those positions are pilot positions and from my understanding, pay the pilot wage+ some figure. It used to be published, but I can't find it any more. I know an FO who used to be a director. He was paid the FO wage+some amount.

By guess only, I',m guessing a standards guy will make +$20k, chief pilot +$50k, Director +$75k. That's purely a guess though.

[groundtoflightdeck]

T4's are coming out and it seems a lot of my WJ friends are pleasantly surprised with what they earned. FO's average $100-120k (guy on other thread made $150k), Captains around $200k.

I'm not an AC guy.

I am curious though....how much OT is required to make these numbers happen?

5 days/month?

10 days/month?

You can't do overtime. You are a pumpkin at 90hrs and these days the monthly min is 85 or so.

[rudder]

T4's are coming out and it seems a lot of my WJ friends are pleasantly surprised with what they earned. FO's average $100-120k (guy on other thread made $150k), Captains around $200k.

You can't do overtime. You are a pumpkin at 90hrs and these days the monthly min is 85 or so.

I think that the reference was to WJ, not AC.

Rule of thumb at any airline is that hourly rate x 1000 = base yearly pay (that approximates 82.5 pay hours per month).

Some carriers offer voluntary overtime opportunities at 150% of regular rate (WJ/Jazz). 2 days of overtime per month can add up to 20% to a T4.

WJ offers a 100% matching contributory ESOP up to 20% of regular pay. Jazz is less generous with an ESOP matching of 60% capped at 6% of regular pay.

WJ offers profit sharing which I understand has averaged out to equalling approximately one month of extra pay. Jazz offers some performance based incentives which do not add up to a significant increment on the T4.

All of these provisions together, depending on employer, can add up to an increase of 20-50% on a T4 over the initial basic pay calculation. Of course the quid is increased productivity using less staff which would seem to be an imperative in today's marketplace.

[ratherbee]

Funny how the poll shows that the majority of pilots want the expired contract back! Yes, the concessionary one signed in 2003 during CCAA! So much for the $30M we have squandered since April 1st of last year.

We deserve what we get.

[twinpratts]

(i.e. you have to pay for your own parking pass, generally short layovers at hotel airports, no hotel provided during training, etc).

Hmm...
I get my parking paid in it's entirety at YYC,
If you asked the pilots they would ask for more flying/ less time in Hotels,
and I got past the whole no hotel during training thing by moving to where the training is held!

To each his/ her own .

[What About Me?]

Funny how the poll shows that the majority of pilots want the expired contract back! Yes, the concessionary one signed in 2003 during CCAA! So much for the $30M we have squandered since April 1st of last year.

We deserve what we get.

Don't you mean the contract prior to 2003, which is the one(with minor changes-uplift) currently in effect?

[Dockjock]

I am a 6 year F/O at WJ. Other than my first 2 years I have just cracked 6 figures each of the last 3 years. I do the 20% plus a bit of OT

Working conditions are great...training is second to nobody...FLICA is amazing when you understand it.

Wether you like it or not management is open and honest...as much as they can it seems.

We have our issues just like any other airline, but I wouldn't trade this job for anything.

I'm a 6th year A320 FO at AC. My T4 has been as follows:

2006 Fall- hired (4500 hrs, turboprop captain)
2007 EMJ FO $40,000
2008 EMJ FO $45,000
2009 320 FO $84,000
2010 320 FO $84,000
2011 320 FO $97,000 (7800 hrs)

My pension is worth $47,000 if I quit today and transfer it to a locked-in arrangement, or I could elect to wait until I turn 60 and receive $542 per month.

To my mind, we are compensated completely and utterly on par with WJ pilots, if not a little lower. They T4 much higher, we have a pension. My pension will be worth much more than at present one day although it will be under attack by management and government in perpetuity, so the psychological "security" that is provides to me is minimal to non-existent. I have, at the time being, a much larger variety of career opportunities in front of me than a WJ pilot has, and the expectation (to use a not-unreasonable word in my opinion) that I will one day make quite a bit more money than I do now, and travel the entire world doing it. There is a lot more risk involved in an Air Canada career today than there is with a WJ one (my view) because at the end of the day, AC is an unprofitable company and subject to failure in any given year.

FWIW

[ogopogo]

... or I could elect to wait until I turn 60 and receive $542 per month.

$542/mo x 12 = $6,500./yr

I thought the AC Pension plan was more generous than that. Isn't it a fairly large % of your best T4?

[TheStig]

... or I could elect to wait until I turn 60 and receive $542 per month.

$542/mo x 12 = $6,500./yr

I thought the AC Pension plan was more generous than that. Isn't it a fairly large % of your best T4?

Remember that's with only 5 years of service, I believe what DockJock was saying is that if he left AC now, at 60 his pension from AC would be worth $542 a month.

[ogopogo]

That makes more sense. After say 35 years of service, approx what % of best salary would the current pension give?

[Dockjock]

Approx 60% so spending 5 years as a:

B777 CA at $230K T4, pension is $140K
B767 CA at $200K T4, pension is $120K
A320 CA at $160K T4, pension is $90K

As is evident by these numbers, a WJ B737 CA makes about the same T4 as an AC B767 CA, but without a pension. Also, a new hire WJ pilot will presently wait about 10 years to see an upgrade, but while an AC pilot will see one potentially much sooner to the EMJ, will actually take more than 20, perhaps 25 years to T4 $200K.

So, do you want money now, or later? Do you trust that your deferred compensation (pension) will be there, or will it be reneged upon? Do you want to own airline stock, even for one year? Are you interested in committing 20% of your gross to buying airline stock? What about profit share, that's a worm hole ain't it?

Basically, AC and WJ could not be more different if they tried.

[RudderWhat]

Approx 60% so spending 5 years as a:

B777 CA at $230K T4, pension is $140K
B767 CA at $200K T4, pension is $120K
A320 CA at $160K T4, pension is $90K

As is evident by these numbers, a WJ B737 CA makes about the same T4 as an AC B767 CA, but without a pension. Also, a new hire WJ pilot will presently wait about 10 years to see an upgrade, but while an AC pilot will see one potentially much sooner to the EMJ, will actually take more than 20, perhaps 25 years to T4 $200K.

So, do you want money now, or later? Do you trust that your deferred compensation (pension) will be there, or will it be reneged upon? Do you want to own airline stock, even for one year? Are you interested in committing 20% of your gross to buying airline stock? What about profit share, that's a worm hole ain't it?

Basically, AC and WJ could not be more different if they tried.

I want my money now, to invest it for my retirement as I chose.
However, I don't want my retirement tied to an airline stock in any way. Would rather try my luck in Vegas.