Low Cost Carrier

[homer85]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu3BY0IVciM&feature=plcp

You can skip to 3:00

[rudder]

That clip is very outdated. Since then AC has become somewhat schizophrenic on what the structure/role of an LCC will be. I suspect that the final incarnation will be driven by the results of the ACPA/AC arbitration as AC seems prepared to act unilaterally if they do not get the relief that they are hoping for within the collective agreement.

[bcflyer]

There is no plan. There is propaganda designed to scare the pilots into thinking that the sky is falling, but there is no real plan......

[Fanblade]

["rudder"] Since then AC has become somewhat schizophrenic on what the structure/role of an LCC will fill.[/quote]

Isn't that the truth. It is why it has become so difficult believe it is or was anything but a red herring. The LCC will no doubt be part of the arbitration. The question is will it just sit dormant in the CBA like the cargo specialty company.

IMO Boston consulting told them to emulate Delta/UA

[hithere]

And what is the new Delta/UA model?

[Fanblade]

Who said anything about new for Delta or UA?

Multiple CPA contracts up to 90 seats. The amount of 90 seat aircraft the Delta pilots just permitted to CPA's will change the landscape for everyone.

Westjet regional at 80% of the going rate for employees? The second nail.

Bill c-33. Match the industry standard. The final nail.

Welcome the Americanization of the regional system to Canada.

[Takeoff OK]

Who said anything about new for Delta or UA?

Multiple CPA contracts up to 90 seats. The amount of 90 seat aircraft the Delta pilots just permitted to CPA's will change the landscape for everyone.

Westjet regional at 80% of the going rate for employees? The second nail.

Bill c-33. Match the industry standard. The final nail.

Welcome the Americanization of the regional system to Canada.

There are no outsourced 90-seaters in the new Delta contract. It allows for the addition of another seventy 76-seaters as 50-seaters are phased out; I believe at a 2:1 ratio.

[Fanblade]

I suppose 90 seat Max seating capacity with 76 seats is more accurate.

The shear number of airframes. The introduction of wide spread business class at the regionals in the US. The compensation levels of these carriers.



Game changer. On transboarder AC will not compete. Jazz won't compete. WJ won't compete.

Everyone now needs to go cheaper.

[Takeoff OK]

Max seating capacity doesn't matter for Delta's regional feed. Delta scope is governed by actual seating configuration and MTOW (89,000 lbs, and that much only for Compass's E175ARs).

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your sentiment. But if AC wants to use Delta's new contract as an example of "industry standard", you guys will actually get better than you've got (DB plan notwithstanding). For that reason, they won't. Perhaps, instead, it should be ACPA bringing DALPA's contract to the table for an "industry standard" example.

Hopefully you guys get it all done before the new Continited deal gets inked. That, I'm sure, will be something to shudder over. And God only knows what will happen with AMR -- the true last bastion of scope protection. Bankruptcy's a bitch for the working man, especially in the USA.

[Takeoff OK]

To address your point of competing with the US carriers: In many ways, I think you're right. Take, for example, Westjet firing up a regional division while everyone else is trying to dump their wholly-owned subsidiaries. Curious. Will it work? Common sense says no. But then again, Westjet has done the seemingly impossible by securing codeshares with pretty much everyone that matters, regardless of alliances. Go figure. I still think their regional plan is a non-starter. And having no business/first class, by comparison, is going to limit their revenue stream going forward.

How about Air Canada trying to compete with its bloated, hostile, top-heavy structure? Again, I think not. To be honest, I think AC needs to actually shrink, but what do I know?

The one thing that is absolutely true is that pilot pay rates will never make or break a company. Never have, never will. So firing up a LCC on the basis of reduced pilot pay = increased profits is a total sham. You only need to look at Southwest or Transat to see that neither domestic nor International LCC operations survive by crew compensation. The flaw with AC's LCC plan is that they truly don't know how to involve everyone to streamline an operation, a la WJ, SW, TS, etc. As such, it will fail. And more than likely 1000+ AC pilots will end up temporarily displaced to yet another money-losing venture before they pull the plug on that one too.

Air Canada is broken. Not at the bottom; at the top. Until some true visionaries take the helm, the dance will repeat itself for the foreseeable.

All I can say is thank God Southwest has refused to break their extremely successful model and not started looking northward. Perhaps those of you at Westjet should start thinking about why you're breaking yours with the addition of a regional feed. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[CanadianEh]

Takeoff OK, good point about Southwest. This article proves that the formula continues to work even in economically unsettling times:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/ ... MK20120719

[CanadaEH]

Southwest has even stepped away from the "Southwest model".

Look for WS to add some sort of premium economy seating by years end.

[Zip Tie]

Air Canada will be broken into three pieces.International and long haul domestic done by Air Canada and flown by the higher time crews that remain.Domestic med length and smaller flying done by Jazz and a few other small airlines in a new much larger but cost conservative CPA.To compete for the sun destination business, a LCC done by new hires under a LCC type contract.The three divisions will feed each others systems.If it doesn't work then it will be easily disassembled and shut down on an individual basis.

[scopiton]

Air Canada will be broken into three pieces.International and long haul domestic done by Air Canada and flown by the higher time crews that remain.Domestic med length and smaller flying done by Jazz and a few other small airlines in a new much larger but cost conservative CPA.To compete for the sun destination business, a LCC done by new hires under a LCC type contract.The three divisions will feed each others systems.If it doesn't work then it will be easily disassembled and shut down on an individual basis.

source of information ?

[Takeoff OK]

Air Canada will be broken into three pieces.International and long haul domestic done by Air Canada and flown by the higher time crews that remain.Domestic med length and smaller flying done by Jazz and a few other small airlines in a new much larger but cost conservative CPA.To compete for the sun destination business, a LCC done by new hires under a LCC type contract.The three divisions will feed each others systems.If it doesn't work then it will be easily disassembled and shut down on an individual basis.

A LCC cannot be staffed only with new hires, unless you're talking Direct-Entry Captains. Don't see that ever happening. It will be displacements, both voluntary and involuntary, that operate any future LCC.

[Zip Tie]

Air Canada will be broken into three pieces.International and long haul domestic done by Air Canada and flown by the higher time crews that remain.Domestic med length and smaller flying done by Jazz and a few other small airlines in a new much larger but cost conservative CPA.To compete for the sun destination business, a LCC done by new hires under a LCC type contract.The three divisions will feed each others systems.If it doesn't work then it will be easily disassembled and shut down on an individual basis.

source of information ?

Oh please.Source of information? The writing is on the wall.

[Zip Tie]

Air Canada will be broken into three pieces.International and long haul domestic done by Air Canada and flown by the higher time crews that remain.Domestic med length and smaller flying done by Jazz and a few other small airlines in a new much larger but cost conservative CPA.To compete for the sun destination business, a LCC done by new hires under a LCC type contract.The three divisions will feed each others systems.If it doesn't work then it will be easily disassembled and shut down on an individual basis.

A LCC cannot be staffed only with new hires, unless you're talking Direct-Entry Captains. Don't see that ever happening. It will be displacements, both voluntary and involuntary, that operate any future LCC.

New hires,laid off Air Canada people, expat,whatever.Its going to happen or Air Transat,Sun Wing,Canjet or whatever pops up will grab the loot.
Can not be staffed.......now that's a joke.LMFAO.

[Localizer]

Apparently Zip tie doesn't understand how a unionized operation works.

[Zip Tie]

Apparently Zip tie doesn't understand how a unionized operation works.

Oh yes wise one I do and the tides are turning for the union.Unions are nothing but big business but fail when they are confronted with the same.

[Takeoff OK]

Apparently Zip tie doesn't understand how a unionized operation works.

Oh yes wise one I do and the tides are turning for the union.Unions are nothing but big business but fail when they are confronted with the same.

While the arbitrator will almost definitely side with management when it all comes down, there is no way he is going to tell AC mainline pilots what equipment they can or will fly. This would be an absolutely unprecedented move and the potential backlash would be so huge that no arbitrator (or even government puppet) will stick his neck out that far. Not even under the combined pressures of bankruptcy and the RLA has the U.S. government, or any appointed arbitrator of theirs, ever pulled such a move. If it didn't happen down there, it won't happen up here. In other words, you are wrong. IF the LCC is an Air Canada enterprise, it will be staffed with Air Canada pilots, whether they like it or not.

[Zip Tie]

Apparently Zip tie doesn't understand how a unionized operation works.

Oh yes wise one I do and the tides are turning for the union.Unions are nothing but big business but fail when they are confronted with the same.

While the arbitrator will almost definitely side with management when it all comes down, there is no way he is going to tell AC mainline pilots what equipment they can or will fly. This would be an absolutely unprecedented move and the potential backlash would be so huge that no arbitrator (or even government puppet) will stick his neck out that far. Not even under the combined pressures of bankruptcy and the RLA has the U.S. government, or any appointed arbitrator of theirs, ever pulled such a move. If it didn't happen down there, it won't happen up here. In other words, you are wrong. IF the LCC is an Air Canada enterprise, it will be staffed with Air Canada pilots, whether they like it or not.

Quantas Quantas Quantas.

[RussD]

There's no 'U U U' in Qantas... Putz

[Fanblade]

Takeoff OK,

Very insightful posts. Are you Southwest?

Zip Tie,

Re read his posts. He is spot on including his concerns for the pilot group. Although I must say your 3 separate "divisions" theory may hold some water.

Remembers Zip. Calin's brain child. Remember what he wanted to do as a transition from the 737-200? Then he left his role as CRO. Shortly there after Zip folded into AC.

Well.............he's back. With it..........

[Takeoff OK]

Quantas Quantas Quantas.

Qantas has no scope language in their contract. Different situation as well as a different market.

Takeoff OK,

Very insightful posts. Are you Southwest?

Zip Tie,

Re read his posts. He is spot on including his concerns for the pilot group. Although I must say your 3 separate "divisions" theory may hold some water.

Remembers Zip. Calin's brain child. Remember what he wanted to do as a transition from the 737-200? Then he left his role as CRO. Shortly there after Zip folded into AC.

Well.............he's back. With it..........

Not Southwest, but I have some friends there.

[Takeoff OK]

Well, I guess this is a big part of where the room for extra 76-seaters will be coming from:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-cea ... 47910.html

A very sad day for the only regional airline in the U.S. that ever actually went on strike to try and improve industry standards. They won in 2001, and Delta never forgave them.

Just really sad.