Government of Canada subsidizing certain airlines in Canada

[Gilles Hudicourt]

1 ) When they hire full time year-round pilots, they do not require B-737NG type ratings as a condition of employment. They even hire low time pilots with no jet time whatsoever.

2 ) When they hire part time seasonal pilots, they require a B-737NG type rating.

3 ) Their rationale behind this is that investing in training pilots for such a short time is not cost effective. The Canadian government buys that argument and allows them, on the basis of that argument and that argument alone, to hire Boeing 737NG rated foreigners instead of non-rated Canadians. To save the airline the cost of training Canadian pilots, although all other airlines train their pilots out of pocket.

4 ) But by doing so, the government keeps un-employed Canadians pilots on Employment Insurance (EI) while handing out six figure jobs and high five figure jobs to Foreigners that don't pay a cent of tax in this country, and that send their paychecks to their home country. If the Canadian pilots were given those jobs instead of the foreigners, not only would they not be collecting EI, they would instead be paying significant income taxes to the Government. One LMO application form I read indicated that the foreign B-737NG Captains were paid $11,000/month and the Foreign First Officers $8000/month.

5 ) All this to save these particular airlines the cost of training its pilots, in order to better compete against those other airlines that employ year-round, full time, tax-paying Canadian pilots whose training is paid for by their employer.

6 ) I call it a government subsidy.

7 ) Why to they do it for these particular airlines ? Unless someone can explain it to me in terms I can understand, I think this requires some looking into. Why would this government willingly fork out EI money to unemployed Canadians that could be employed, and turn away tax income by allowing high paying jobs to be held by foreigners that pay no taxes in Canada, when it could avoid both by just denying the foreigners the work permits and allowing those jobs to go to those Canadians on EI?

8 ) Who benefits ? Certainly not the Canadian tax payer.

[twinpratts]

Dude. You need a hobby.

[Pratt X 3]

Dude, he does have a hobby. And if that hobby helps out a fellow pilot, all the power to him.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Dude. You need a hobby.

Thanks Pratt X 3

Twinpratts, for your information I have a full time job, two kids under two, have my simulator coming up in 4 days, my annual exam to do on line today, and my life to run.

But I also have over 50 colleagues out of a job and more to come if this B/S continues. I happen to hate every minute of what I am doing and cannot wait for this nightmare to end so I can move on to my real hobbies which I was forced to put on the back burner ever since I began to tackle this non-sense.

[Jean-Luc Monette]

Dude. You need a hobby.

"Dude", you clearly don't know what you're talking about!

[Scuba_Steve]

Gilles does all this work in his spare time, while flying a full sched and taking care of his family.....and he is in no fear of being touched by the TS layoffs but he's fighting harder than most to help his fellow pilots from every company in Canada.

Yes Gilles I'd like you to have a hobby other than trying to correct a huge misuse of our temporary workers program, sadly the problem is not fixed yet. Keep up the good work! We should rename an airport after you when is is done! (We'll just make sure it's not an international airport )

Cheers

[tbaylx]

Dude. You need a hobby.

Maybe if more guys like Gilles existed in the industry and less like you twinpratts he could afford the time to actually have a hobby. In the meantime thank god there are guys like Dan Adamus and Gilles that spend huge amounts of their own spare time to fight for pilots in the hope we can maintain some sort of profession here in Canada.

[altiplano]

It's an important issue that our profession faces - Keep up the good work Gilles and thanks.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Gilles,
Sorry
But calling this a government subsidy is ridiculous.??? The fact that Transat has DND contracts.. Is this a government subsidy? Where the bids for the contract unfair because the Government wanted to help TS?? You can twist anything in any direction and call it what you please. I think there's only one company in this country that's protected by our government... I see that your trying to make a dramatic statement, but you have to stick to facts and not hype. With Facts you have my support on 1:1

[sanjet]

Dude. You need a hobby.

If more people like Gilles worked in this industry, this profession would probably be less of a shit show. Instead we have people who don't care about this profession unless it affects them personally, the single biggest problem in this industry: "Me, myself and I".

[sanjet]

Gilles,
Sorry
But calling this a government subsidy is ridiculous.??? The fact that Transat has DND contracts.. Is this a government subsidy? Where the bids for the contract unfair because the Government wanted to help TS?? You can twist anything in any direction and call it what you please. I think there's only one company in this country that's protected by our government... I see that your trying to make a dramatic statement, but you have to stick to facts and not hype. With Facts you have my support on 1:1

What does a canadian government using a canadian airline for flying contract have to do with this? That's like saying every 704 that does a medevac is considered subsidized now. We're talking about our profession being degraded day by day by an abuse of a government clause. Apples and oranges.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles,
Sorry
But calling this a government subsidy is ridiculous.???

The argument that Sunwing and Canjet both used was that the cost of training Canadian pilots and keeping them on the job for just 5 to 6 months would be cost prohibitive, especially when there would be no guarantee that they would come back to work the following winter after being laid off all summer. So it's not that there is a real lack of Canadian pilots that can be trained to fly the 737NG in just 6 weeks, it's a matter of saving these airlines training money.

If the Government of Canada agrees with that argument and allows, on that basis, these airlines to hire type-rated foreigners that pay no taxes in Canada instead of hiring and training Canadians, just to save money, and in the process, leaves the Canadians on EI, the Government of Canada is allowing Canjet and Sunwing to make that saving by:

1) Keeping experienced Canadian pilots on EI (most of my 57 AT laid off pilots among others)

2) Depriving itself of income tax revenue that it would have if the jobs were all held by Canadians instead of Foreigners

3) Depriving the Provinces where these pilots are based of income tax revenue that they would have if the jobs were all held by Canadians instead of Foreigners.

Remember, this is not because there are no qualified pilots in Canada.

This is to save these airlines the expense of having to train its pilots so they can better compete against the other airlines.

Did I lose you anywhere or do I make perfect sense ?

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Sanprop

What does a canadian government using a canadian airline for flying contract have to do with this? That's like saying every 704 that does a medevac is considered subsidized now. We're talking about our profession being degraded day by day by an abuse of a government clause. Apples and oranges.

In this particular post based on its title, YES this type of contract could be considered a subsidy (your 704 example makes no sense in this discussion). And Don't think your the only Mother Teresa that thinks our profession is being degraded, I think everyone on this forum thinks that. Including myself.

Gilles,

Did I lose you anywhere or do I make perfect sense ?

I hope that wasn't an attempt to be smart?
Anyways, your making a Tax argument that is very Mirco and unfortunately the government looks at the so called big picture on policy and it's impacts on our industry as a whole not just a handful of pilots. It's not right I agree, but that's a Conservative government for you. And no you didn't lose me anywhere.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I hope that wasn't an attempt to be smart?

Nope, I just wanted you to be specific in where you didn't agree with me in my argument rather than just brush off the whole thing and avoid discussing the specifics. I thought I was clear in the original post.

[sanjet]

Sanprop
In this particular post based on its title, YES this type of contract could be considered a subsidy (your 704 example makes no sense in this discussion). And Don't think your the only Mother Teresa that thinks our profession is being degraded, I think everyone on this forum thinks that. Including myself.

You're negating all my points with no facts to back up. Please explain the difference between a canadian government using a canadian airline employed by canadian pilots to provide lift service as opposed to a medevac also paid by the government. Amazing work on modifying my name there champ

[Rhys Perraton]

I am a pilot, hear me whine, and it doesn't stop when the engines shut down.
The old ones are the best ones.
Give it a break please, if you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined.

[BverLuver]

I am a pilot, hear me whine, and it doesn't stop when the engines shut down.
The old ones are the best ones.
Give it a break please, if you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined.

Rhys Perraton,

I'm sorry, I didn't copy that, transmission unreadable, your coming in a$$hole!

As the owner of an airplane working with the Vernon Flight Club to provide training, I would think you would want Canadians, training in Canadian airplanes and paying services to Canadian businesses, and also would want Canadian companies to hire Canadians since your business also depends on it.

BUT, I guess you are just like any other FTU feeding students the lines about jobs in Canada and the ever impending shortage just to take their money off their hands. Thank you for showing your true colours. I will be sure to NEVER recommend your training unit to anyone and will be happy to pass the word around for you.

Gilles, you are doing a heck of a job and any Canadian pilot who has common sense appreciates the effort you are putting in. Thank you!

BL

[RichAir]

Gilles, does it mean you got an answer from a ministry saying the purpose of this was due to cost saving instead of lack of qualified people. Or you understood it?

Merci, continue ton combat!

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles, does it mean you got an answer from a ministry saying the purpose of this was due to cost saving instead of lack of qualified people. Or you understood it?

Merci, continue ton combat!

No not at all. The Government mostly listens and assures us that our best interests are always looked after but otherwise tells us very little.

The cost savings argument is what Mr Ken Rowe told journalists to explain his use of foreign pilots.

http://www.canada.com/business/Pilots+s ... story.html

Rowe said he can’t afford to train temporary employees, only to lay them off months later so they could find work elsewhere and not be available to him again the following year.

Of course when they have to explain their suspicious need for foreign pilots to the Government on the LMO application form, they have a different speech. They then state that there is a pilot shortage in Canada and that although they do their upmost best to try recruit locally, they just can't find any local pilots qualified to fly the 737NG and hope that the foreigners who come here will

"demonstrate and train our existing personnel on the operation of such specific planes

That was a direct quote from Sunwing's 2011 application for LMOs to hire foreign pilots.

[newcomer]

...

[North Shore]

Rowe said he can’t afford to train temporary employees, only to lay them off months later so they could find work elsewhere and not be available to him again the following year.

This don't make no sense! I currently work all summer, with the quid pro quo that I get the whole winter off. That works really well lifestyle-wise for me and my family - we like skiing, and I'm around to help take the kids to school/swimming/gymnastics, etc... There has to be a subset of pilots out there who would sign on as repeat employees for a winter-only gig, getting their summers off in return?

[Rhys Perraton]

I really enjoyed the personal attack on me by BverLuver, although it probably should have been on the Flight Training page.
It was so wide of the mark as to be laughable, people should get their facts right, especially if they want to make accusations.
Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me.

[tbaylx]

I really enjoyed the personal attack on me by BverLuver, although it probably should have been on the Flight Training page.
It was so wide of the mark as to be laughable, people should get their facts right, especially if they want to make accusations.
Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me.

Ya kind of brought it on yourself with the whining pilot bit...if it was meant to be tongue in cheek it didn't come across that way. If you post sarcastic unhelpful stuff about whining pilots who should just suck up whatever gets tossed their way and be happy, then expect a bit of backlash.

If you don't want it then don't post stuff like that and contribute intelligent arguments instead.

[BverLuver]

I really enjoyed the personal attack on me by BverLuver, although it probably should have been on the Flight Training page.
It was so wide of the mark as to be laughable, people should get their facts right, especially if they want to make accusations.
Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me.

Rhys Perraton,

My comment was also a response to this Gem from another thread (among others):

Give it a rest, who cares, least of all the Canadian bucket and spade brigade who don't care who flies them as long as it's CHEAP.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=84198&p=780495#p780495

BL

[Gino Under]

ALPA represent numerous pilots in this country yet their voice on this issue has yet to be heard.
(Government committees behind closed doors don't count)
If they're involved it's not as obvious as it should be nor would there be a reason to mention it in the first place.
The same can be said for ACPAs audibility.

Alas, both unions seem to be passe.

If American carriers were to pull this same stunt on their pilots... there would be hell to pay!!!
I can assure everyone interested in this topic (and its outcome), ALPA would set that country on fire in protest if it had to!
But, this is Canada. The land of apathy and apology. Besides, our labour issues don't affect ALPAs larger membership group, so why should anyone expect them to be involved let alone committed to having it sensibly resolved? It's a Canadian matter. Unless we actively, collectively deal with it there will be no need for the next generation to even think about learning to fly for our 'cheap' bottom feeder airlines will have paid their politicians and paid for a cheaper option to eliminate the Canadian pilot just to make a buck.

This issue requires every licenced Canadian pilot to be committed to the preservation of not only our profession but to ensuring that whatever precious few piloting job opportunities exist in Canada are filled by Canadian pilots until such time as their is a shortage of qualified pilots.

The next time you sit down to enjoy a plate of bacon and eggs, remember. While the chicken may have been involved the pig was committed. There's a difference.

Obviously, Gilles is committed to this and to him I raise a glass.
Keep up the good work and thanks again for your efforts.

Gino Under