Well this has a familiar sound.

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fire flyer
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Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by fire flyer »

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Gorgons
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Gorgons »

Well I think its pretty simple really, the company is a private entity. I imagine it has a board of directors and a bunch of investors that put thier money in upfront. They expect a profit from thier investment of capital.

They should be free to hire whoever the %$#@ they like at whatever price they will accept. It's all about profit, if they wanted to be involved in social services I'm sure they would have gone to school for that... Experience does not equal entitlement. :roll:
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Rockie
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Rockie »

Gorgons wrote:They should be free to hire whoever the %$#@ they like at whatever price they will accept. It's all about profit, if they wanted to be involved in social services I'm sure they would have gone to school for that... Experience does not equal entitlement.
You're right in that corporations are only in it for profit, but you're also forgetting the fact the Federal and Provincial governments are responsible for social policies and laws that benefit their citizens. This practice is clearly not beneficial to Canadians so it is those governments responsibility to address it. They aren't, so it's left up to the courts.

I bet your attitude would be different if you were out of work in Canada and couldn't get hired because imported foreign workers are cheaper.
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Gorgons
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Gorgons »

I expect your right, if I was unable to get a job because the company I wanted to work for was hiring "outside" labour at a cheaper cost I would be pissed and pointing my finger. However in this day and age of free trade , globalization, survival of the fittest etc what do you expect? I'm not a fan of the goverment stepping in and creating all kinds of protectionist legislation, takes us another step closer to socialism. Just look at Cuba and tell me how well it's worked there. How long do you see Canadian companies staying as such if the rules and regs hamstring them and force them to hire a particular group over another based on what the goverment thinks is good for the country as opposed to what the owner believes is good for his business? One option make his business less competative globaly and eventually out of business... my favorite union mentality...all for one, eventually none for all!
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Rockie
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Rockie »

Gorgons wrote:I'm not a fan of the goverment stepping in and creating all kinds of protectionist legislation, takes us another step closer to socialism. Just look at Cuba and tell me how well it's worked there.
Taking that "socialism" schtick a bit far aren't you? That's kind of like me saying importing foreign labour is one step away from bringing back slavery.
Gorgons wrote: How long do you see Canadian companies staying as such if the rules and regs hamstring them and force them to hire a particular group over another based on what the goverment thinks is good for the country as opposed to what the owner believes is good for his business?
Corporations can move out if they want and some have. But they aren't very bright because they're forgetting that in Canada they employ the middle class. No middle class income = no middle class = no economy = no customers for their corporation.
Gorgons wrote:my favorite union mentality...all for one, eventually none for all
The problem with being hard over against unions or hard over for them is that you ignore the middle ground. Some companies don't need a union because they respect their employees and treat them well. Unions exist because too many companies don't and without protection we're back to the dark ages.

And by the way, non-unionized companies tend to treat their employees well in order to avoid unionization. So in a very real way non-unionized employees enjoy the benefits of unions without actually belonging to one.
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BTyyj
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by BTyyj »

Gorgons wrote:Just look at Cuba and tell me how well it's worked there.
Take a look at the US and China and figure out which one is in better shape. Note how the US is now trying to bring previously outsourced jobs back.

Globalization thus far has proven beneficial only to those who keep jobs in country.
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Gorgons
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Gorgons »

isn't it the government thats trying to bring the jobs back, not the companies? The companies books are doing just fine. The investors didn't buy in to create high paying jobs and be hailed as corporate nice guys. If I own a mine and can hire qualified labour 25% cheaper simply by recruiting outside my borders I owe it to the investors to do so. I don't believe I owe anything to the guy that believes he should be paid $100.00 per hour and because his passport says Canada he should have 1st option on a position, especially if theres a qualified labour pool happy with $75.00 per hour. Your equating paycheques with employee treatment and implying that because I'm paying a willing to work group less than another I'm treating the employed group in a manner that I wouldn't treat the other... In other words lower pay means poorer working conditions?
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Lost Lake »

Gorgons wrote:Well I think its pretty simple really, the company is a private entity. I imagine it has a board of directors and a bunch of investors that put thier money in upfront. They expect a profit from thier investment of capital.

They should be free to hire whoever the %$#@ they like at whatever price they will accept. It's all about profit, if they wanted to be involved in social services I'm sure they would have gone to school for that... Experience does not equal entitlement. :roll:
I expect your right, if I was unable to get a job because the company I wanted to work for was hiring "outside" labour at a cheaper cost I would be pissed and pointing my finger. However in this day and age of free trade , globalization, survival of the fittest etc what do you expect? I'm not a fan of the goverment stepping in and creating all kinds of protectionist legislation, takes us another step closer to socialism. Just look at Cuba and tell me how well it's worked there. How long do you see Canadian companies staying as such if the rules and regs hamstring them and force them to hire a particular group over another based on what the goverment thinks is good for the country as opposed to what the owner believes is good for his business? One option make his business less competative globaly and eventually out of business... my favorite union mentality...all for one, eventually none for all!.
Wow. Can't wait til India trains up all their pilots who will come here and fly for 1/3 of our wages. I like like my lifestyle, as shitty as it is now. Can't imagine if we globalize jobs here. Anyone who will work for less is free to come here and work. Too bad they will contribute nothing to the Canadian economy. Give your heads a shake. Let the foriegn company leave Canada. They have to leave the land behind.We have fought for 200 years to get where we are today. The mining industry is overpaid in my mind, but that doesn't give the the company the right to undermine Canada. I am speechless with the idiotic statements on here like Gorgons. Unfortunately, the companies do have a responsibility to hire Canadians. So no-one in Canada will be working, another great depression, 50% unemployment, soup kitchens, etc. Oh ya, and no-one will be flying anywhere except the foriegners, who will use their own airlines, to fly them and their money home.
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Gorgons
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Gorgons »

Manufacturing is on a steady decline in North America, its happening overseas. Why? Because we the consumer won't pay the prices needed by the company making the goods when they are produced here. Wages drive the production costs beyond what the market will pay. Solution? Outsource... In the BC situation the workers are living in the community. Does some of the wage go overseas, no doubt but it also goes back into the economy via the grocery store, restaurants and local businesses. If your ideology is followed and we bar the door and toss out all the immigrants and force homegrown upon business be prepared to pay to for that entitlement. You say our jobs... I say my jobs, I own the company, it's my investment thats on the line, therefore I should have the right to decide who is going to be offered my jobs.
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Lost Lake
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Lost Lake »

Outsourcing production is diferent than importing labour. These people are not members of the community, but are here on a work visa. If you have any knowledge of the lifestyles and philosophies of ethnic groups, let alone the work conditions at mines, you would know that while at the mine, all meals and clothing are provided by the mine. Secondly, these people are here to make money, then return home to their country where they can buy those outsourced products on the black market at a fraction of the price. They provide NOTHING to the economy in Canada. I agree that the consumer is willing to turn a blind eye to where a product comes from so long as it is cheap. However, if we out source jobs and insource labour, there will be no consumer.

As for having a product made cheaper, companies like Nike could have their product manufactured in NA for the same profit and price. Just have to reduce payouts like the $246,000,000 they are giving to Rory Mcilroy over 10 years. Adthat is just one athlete!!
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xsbank
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by xsbank »

Sorry Lost, but this made me laugh - "...give the the company the right to undermine Canada."
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Lost Lake »

I wondered if anyone would catch it. Tks
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Rockie
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Rockie »

Gorgons wrote: isn't it the government thats trying to bring the jobs back, not the companies?
The government is supposed to be doing that but they aren't, that's why the miners in BC are forced to go to court. Governments are elected by the people to protect and promote their citizen's society and well being. They do that through laws and regulations, which in this particular case is by restricting temporary work visas to cases where Canadian workers cannot be found.

It's safe to say that without laws and regulations banks would take risks that put the entire world economy in jeopardy (2008), corporations will misrepresent their financials for short term gain (Nortel), financial institutions would rob their clients blind (Madoff), and corporations would hire anybody from anywhere who will do the job cheaper than the next guy (BC mines).

Rest assured Gorgon that whatever it is you do for a living, there is someone from out of country willing to do it for half the price. If I were you I would be fully behind the miners in BC rather than the mine. I would also condemn the same practice being carried out by Sunwing which might actually hit closer to home for you.
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NeverBlue
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by NeverBlue »

They provide NOTHING to the economy in Canada.
ummm....they pay income tax and sales tax and GST just like you and me you Whoa, easy on the insults big fella! NS.

all though I don't necessarily like the way if affects me sometimes, Globalization is inevitable.


There was a time when jobs were kept in the city and outsourcing was considered another city.....then another province....then another country...then another continent...soon another world...then another galaxy.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

growth is the route of all evil...we should just build a big dome around Canada and not let anyone in or out!! :P

grow up people!
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Rockie
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Rockie »

NeverBlue wrote:we should just build a big dome around Canada and not let anyone in or out!!

grow up people!
I think you're confusing immigration with the current practice of importing temporary foreign workers so you don't have to pay local wages. Not the same thing at all.
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Shiny Side Up »

NeverBlue wrote:
They provide NOTHING to the economy in Canada.
ummm....they pay income tax and sales tax and GST just like you and me you edited
Actually no they don't, and that's part of the problem with letting this sort of thing go on. Part of the appeal of bringing in foreign workers is that said workers will usually be treated as if they are working in said foreign country. This usually means that they are being paid in some sort of company store type system which benefits the comany more than the workers and keeps fund within. The workers being on Canadian soil in this case don't contribute to the Canadian economy since they don't participate in it being the gist of the issue. The other issue is of course that since foreign workers are often un aware of more worker beneficial labour laws here the company can treat the workers as if they are working in China or wherever they're from. They can be forced to work for longer hours and frequently safety concerns can be ignored. If we let this sort of thing go on, it would be like we never progressed from the days where it was acceptable to have one dead Chinese man for every mile of railway track.
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by photofly »

The workers being on Canadian soil in this case don't contribute to the Canadian economy since they don't participate in it being the gist of the issue.
I think your understanding of economics is mixed up.

If a foreign worker does a job cheaper than a Canadian, then the amount that they don't get paid, relative to the Canadian worker, is a direct contribution to the Canadian mining company's profits, and so a contribution to the Canadian economy.

Don't confuse the distribution of money into the Canadian economy (*) - of which, in the case of foreign workers, you may disapprove - with the contribution itself, which is undeniable.

Secondly, if foreign workers send home their Canadian earnings to their families then their (foreign) banks have to buy their Canadian dollars for local currency. Those dollars have to flow back to Canada, and the only way they can do that is by foreign countries purchasing Canadian exports. Every dollar earned in Canada that goes overseas funds a dollar's worth of exports. That's a direct contribution to the Canadian economy, by every foreign worker.

(*) by which I mean it remains with the mining company instead of being spent on other local businesses.
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Rockie
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Rockie »

photofly wrote:I think your understanding of economics is mixed up.

If a foreign worker does a job cheaper than a Canadian, then the amount that they don't get paid, relative to the Canadian worker, is a direct contribution to the Canadian mining company's profits, and so a contribution to the Canadian economy.
Actually I think it's yours that's confused. Corporations in Canada are sitting on record amounts of cash and doing nothing with it despite the government's contention that tax breaks create jobs. As Mark Carney puts it in the linked article that is dead money.

http://business.financialpost.com/2012/ ... tells-caw/

Money contributes to the economy when it's paid out to the middle class, who in turn buy cars, houses, refrigerators, groceries, insurance, education, vacations etc. etc. etc. Temporary foreign workers in Canada do none of that in Canada and therefore do not contribute to the Canadian economy. And because of them Canadian workers are sitting idle without an income and are therefore unable themselves to contribute to the economy.

If a mining company wants to operate with foreign workers then they are free to relocate to a foreign country. But if they are exploiting Canadian resources they should be employing Canadian workers.
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Edo »

photofly wrote:
......
Secondly, if foreign workers send home their Canadian earnings to their families then their (foreign) banks have to buy their Canadian dollars for local currency. Those dollars have to flow back to Canada, and the only way they can do that is by foreign countries purchasing Canadian exports. Every dollar earned in Canada that goes overseas funds a dollar's worth of exports. That's a direct contribution to the Canadian economy, by every foreign worker....
The banks win. Not the export market. The foreign banks charge a fee to convert dollars to local currency. When the banks get enough CDN they simply trade them on the international market. They do not suddenly buy Canadian goods just because they have CDN dollars on hand.
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Edo »

posted twice
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photofly
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by photofly »

Edo wrote: The banks win. Not the export market. The foreign banks charge a fee to convert dollars to local currency. When the banks get enough CDN they simply trade them on the international market.
Oh that's just anti-capitalist nonsense. And to whom, exactly, on this mysterious "international market", do you think this evil bank trades them? People who want to buy Canadian exports and who need to buy CDN$ to pay for them, of course.

There is a tiny tiny pot of CDN$ held by international institutions, and currency investors. So that people who want to buy Canadian exports don't have to hook up with all these foreign workers and negotiate individual deals for $100 at a time. That's the function the banks provide, in return for their exchange fees. Any company that feels the banks aren't providing value for money is welcome to send people to stand on street corners in Mumbai or wherever and buy CDN$ bills at a better rate.

The point that you're missing is that the value is added to the Canadian economy at the point the resources are dug out of the ground. Regardless of who does it.
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by Rockie »

photofly wrote:The point that you're missing is that the value is added to the Canadian economy at the point the resources are dug out of the ground. Regardless of who does it.
Wrong. It matters very much who does it.
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photofly
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by photofly »

Actually I think it's yours that's confused. Corporations in Canada are sitting on record amounts of cash and doing nothing with it despite the government's contention that tax breaks create jobs. As Mark Carney puts it in the linked article that is dead money.
Think it through: this money doesn't sit in the bank. The bank has to pay interest on its deposits, and to generate that it must lend the money (also at interest) to investors, and to small businesses, who take out loans and use it to create jobs, so they can pay the interest.

The only thing that "sits" and doesn't earn anything is gold bullion.
Money contributes to the economy when it's paid out to the middle class, who in turn buy cars, houses, refrigerators, groceries, insurance, education, vacations etc. etc. etc. Temporary foreign workers in Canada do none of that in Canada and therefore do not contribute to the Canadian economy.
The money that isn't paid to the temporary foreign workers gets paid to the shareholders in the form of increased dividends funded out of higher profits, which they in turn use to buy cars, houses, refrigerators, groceries, insurance, education, etc. etc. The money that is paid to temporary foreign workers gets back into the Canadian economy by the route I outlined above.
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photofly
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by photofly »

Rockie wrote:
photofly wrote:The point that you're missing is that the value is added to the Canadian economy at the point the resources are dug out of the ground. Regardless of who does it.
Wrong. It matters very much who does it.
What matters is that it's a Canadian company that gets the benefit of the increase in value. If a person gives me his labour for a wage then the economy hasn't increased, or decreased. It's an equal exchange. If he's foreign and sends money abroad, it doesn't matter - because in exchange for the money going out, his labour has come in.

The value is created by the Canadian company that has the mineral rights which allow a dollar's worth of labour to become ten dollars worth of minerals.

The value is added to the Canadian economy by virtue of the ownership of the company which holds the mineral rights, because it's the ability to exploit the mineral rights that increases the value. Not paying for the labour.

This is basic, basic, basic economics.
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NeverBlue
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Re: Well this has a familiar sound.

Post by NeverBlue »

If a foreign worker does a job cheaper than a Canadian, then the amount that they don't get paid, relative to the Canadian worker, is a direct contribution to the Canadian mining company's profits, and so a contribution to the Canadian economy.

Don't confuse the distribution of money into the Canadian economy (*) - of which, in the case of foreign workers, you may disapprove - with the contribution itself, which is undeniable.

Secondly, if foreign workers send home their Canadian earnings to their families then their (foreign) banks have to buy their Canadian dollars for local currency. Those dollars have to flow back to Canada, and the only way they can do that is by foreign countries purchasing Canadian exports. Every dollar earned in Canada that goes overseas funds a dollar's worth of exports. That's a direct contribution to the Canadian economy, by every foreign worker.
Exactly my point. If anyone thinks the feds are missing out on money by having foreign workers come in and work...you're dreaming.
If that was the case we would have no working Canadian citizens in Canada and our Government would be bankrupt.

Secondly, even if the workers are fed and clothed...they usually are charged for that and it is reduced from their wages and GST and PST have to be charged (or HST depending on the province).
If they're not charged the companies have to buy the food and clothing somewhere...unless they smuggle everything into the country.
Electricity, Natural Gas and anything else required to house them including insurance is paid for by someone.

They have to have health insurance and workers compensation insurance as well I believe.

It's a ridiculous ignorant statement to say they contribute nothing to the economy...

I think you're confusing immigration with the current practice of importing temporary foreign workers so you don't have to pay local wages. Not the same thing at all.
I'm not confusing it at all...If some industries weren't allowed to bring in foreign workers they would simply die and go away.
A good example is the fruit and wine industries who can't get local workers to harvest their product, which is sold on a world market, and couldn't compete if their costs were any higher.
As a result of foreign workers these companies make money, use utilities, buy equipment and pay taxes.

Make no mistake, these are the types of jobs that most people in this country simply will not do and would rather collect unemployment or welfare.

I'm very surprised at the tone of this thread because in this industry many, many people from Canada work in foreign countries for airlines, operators, MRO's and manufacturers...I have
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