College

[mulligan]

I'm getting ready to retire so this is not a big deal to me but I thought I'd make a comment.
I read in the paper that A) "Pilots at Westjet are not happy and there is talk of a union" B) Somebody wants to start an ultra low cost airline in Vancouver.
After 35 years I can see that what goes around comes around and I'm guessing that in a few years we will once again see two large airlines in this country beating each other to death. Perhaps there will be another messy merger. Meanwhile there will be a hyper low cost outfit start up with pilots earning a little over minimum wage.
If I had to put this never ending cycle of folly down to one thing I would put it down to shrort-sightedness and lack of unity (ok, two things). Us pilots are predictable and clever managements count on us to shoot ourselves in our collective feet.
The one thing that is new on the scene is the College of Professional Pilots. I don't know much about it and, as I said, I am retiring so I'm not too worried. But I sent in my 60 bucks in the hope that my fellow pilots will finally do something that is in their collective interest. There is a desperate need for a body which represents all of us, not just my outfit or your outfit.
So give it some thought and give the CPP a chance. It needs more members and more money if it is to live up to it's potential.
Or else history will surely repeat itself.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

++++

[Krimson]

I think the big issue is that people do not want to become involved or donate until some changes are being noticed. Only problem is nothing will change until they have full support.

Didn't the college mention they had no interest in setting/dealing with wages?

[Takeoff OK]

I would have supported the college, but their refusal to take a public stance on the foreign pilot issue when it was in the spotlight really disappointed me. I just can't understand why they wouldn't stand up and be heard on something that affects every single pilot in this country. It's a shame because I think the CPP is a good idea.

[teacher]

I think the big issue is that people do not want to become involved or donate until some changes are being noticed. Only problem is nothing will change until they have full support.

Didn't the college mention they had no interest in setting/dealing with wages?

Baby steps. First thing first, the college needs to become established and they need everyone's support for that to happen. Than and only than will we see changes.

[prop2jet]

The concept of the college is a novel idea, however their expressed objective at this time is to lobby to take over functions currently performed by Transport Canada. This is at least how I understand it. There is no desire on the part of the college to get involved in collective improvement of wages and working conditions. If this is the case they will not gain popular support.

[CanadianEh]

You guys are missing the point that Teacher and others are trying to make. This is a cause vs. effect type thing. If you look at professional governing bodies (ie: College of Nurses, College of Physicians, etc.) they have a mandate to protect the interests of all their members on multiple issues. They are also in charge of the standards for the profession, which I think could help regulate the supply side of pilots if done in a meaningful way. We've all heard about how Transport Canada is going to be watering down the ATPL reqs, but with a College that has the PROFESSION in mind, the standards bar shouldn't keep getting lower, it should get higher.

Not to mention the fact that (for once) all Pilots would be united by a common entity.

I see the arguments for and against the idea, but all I know is that history looks like it's going to repeat itself if Canada Jetlines starts up and what have we learned since the last time?

[teacher]

You guys are missing the point that Teacher and others are trying to make. This is a cause vs. effect type thing. If you look at professional governing bodies (ie: College of Nurses, College of Physicians, etc.) they have a mandate to protect the interests of all their members on multiple issues. They are also in charge of the standards for the profession, which I think could help regulate the supply side of pilots if done in a meaningful way. We've all heard about how Transport Canada is going to be watering down the ATPL reqs, but with a College that has the PROFESSION in mind, the standards bar shouldn't keep getting lower, it should get higher.

Not to mention the fact that (for once) all Pilots would be united by a common entity.

I see the arguments for and against the idea, but all I know is that history looks like it's going to repeat itself if Canada Jetlines starts up and what have we learned since the last time?

Exactly, first step, have control over our own licenses and profession. With that, the result will over time be improvements in wages and working conditions. It will take time BUT it will happen IF the College gets the pilot support it needs. As mentioned above look at MANY other governing bodies and you'll see that with the members best interests in mind WAWCON can improve.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Transport Canada, with its diminishing budget, is pulling out of regulating the industry. Inspectors have less flying hours, more non-pilots are put in key positions, and more responsibilities are given to clerical staff. SMS, for example, was introduced to pass on to industry a responsibility that had always been with TC, to save money. The FLVC issue is a prime example of where Transport Canada folds to industry demands. It allows foreign licensed pilots to fly commercially in Canada although the CARs clearly never meant for this to be allowed. Who oversees Transport Canada when they fail to do their job properly ? Who brings them in line ? No one. Unions cannot be counted on for this, has we recently saw, with one pilot Union in favor of wet-leases of foreign aircraft while another pilot union was opposed to it.

A strong College could have prevented this.
More recently, I found out that foreign applicants applying for a Canadian licence, were issued a Canadian ATPL after doing an IFR PPC in a simulator as SIC. Yet the rules clearly require that to obtain a CPL, the test be done as PIC in a real aircraft. How can it be easier to obtain an ATPL than a CPL ? Another case where TC is folding under pressure from the Industry and another thing a strong college could have prevented.

We need the College and we need it NOW! I urge every professional pilot in this country to join as soon as possible. As long as the College only has a fraction of the professional pilots of this country as members, it will not be in a position to take any real action in the name of the profession. I think we are about 18,000 professional pilots in this country.

I presently pay 1.95% of my gross salary to ALPA, as my union dues. That comes out to $1950 for a 100K Salary, $2925 for a 150K salary. The $60 the College requires is peanuts compared to what I already pay ALPA. The sooner the College has 10,000 members, the better for all of us.

One major role I see for the College, is a seat on CARAC Committees, to give professional pilots a voice on new and amended regulations....

Those who decide to wait on the sidelines are those who will cause this initiative to fail.......

[Panama Jack]

I would have supported the college, but their refusal to take a public stance on the foreign pilot issue when it was in the spotlight really disappointed me. I just can't understand why they wouldn't stand up and be heard on something that affects every single pilot in this country. It's a shame because I think the CPP is a good idea.

That one little current event issue is what keeps you from supporting the College?

Either you are pouting, or the old proverb about not being able to see the forest from the trees comes to mind.

[Takeoff OK]

I would have supported the college, but their refusal to take a public stance on the foreign pilot issue when it was in the spotlight really disappointed me. I just can't understand why they wouldn't stand up and be heard on something that affects every single pilot in this country. It's a shame because I think the CPP is a good idea.

That one little current event issue is what keeps you from supporting the College?

Either you are pouting, or the old proverb about not being able to see the forest from the trees comes to mind.

I would argue that this "one little current event issue" is perhaps the largest and most impactful issue to hit our market since deregulation. If you can't see that then perhaps you're having a little "forest FOR the trees" issue yourself. The CPP not seizing that opportunity, not only to take a stand and show us what they're really all about, but also to gain exposure for their very existence was -- to me -- a massive failure on their part.

Maybe I am pouting, or maybe I'm just disillusioned by their failure to act. Maybe I'll chalk it up to a momentary lapse of reason on their part, and end up sending them the 60 bucks. Time will tell.

[Rogerdodger2]

It is a current event issue, that's all it is. I've said it before, BIg Red and ACPAs failures have done more to hurt this industry in Canada then a 120 foreign pilots coming over for a few months a year. Your kill SW tunnel vision has clouded your perspective on the real issues.

[Takeoff OK]

It is a current event issue, that's all it is. I've said it before, BIg Red and ACPAs failures have done more to hurt this industry in Canada then a 120 foreign pilots coming over for a few months a year. Your kill SW tunnel vision has clouded your perspective on the real issues.

You are absolutely incorrect about it being a current event issue, but I'm not going to waste any time trying to convince you. The facts speak for themselves. You are correct, however, about ACPA doing a number on everyone; the creation of Sky Regional has set a new low bar for industry standard. But Sunwing has fundamentally changed the way an airline can be created and grown, and the new norms being established will have lasting repercussions.

[Takeoff OK]

Think on this: What's to stop this new upstart from partnering with somebody like Easyjet, or some ME outfit with bottomless pockets, and dumping seats on the market? Once you guys have been around long enough, and your pay scales get a little more expensive, you may end up choking on that Koolade you've been guzzling

[Skyhunter]

Reason I didn't join, I sent an email to the contact on their website. I asked in the email, how the college would recognize military pilots as the left the military and joined civilian aviation. Would there be right from the get go, that the college would except the military experience and years of service, to be equal to that of any civilian experience if/when that kind of recognition was required for reasonable employment in this country.

I did not get a reply to my email. Until I have a clear understanding to the answer of the above question, I would not join such an organization, or support it.

[mulligan]

Well! I`m glad I started this thread because there`s some good input. Often there seems to be a fair amount of screaming on these forums and nobody gets anywhere like that.
A couple of people were reluctant due to a single issue and I respect their concerns. The foreign pilot issue is a real problem and it seems to me tailor made for the College. If anybody from the College is reading this, lets hear from you.
As to Transport Canada, I think that avenue is rapidly closing completely. I have a close aquaintance who is an inspector with TC and he is very discouraged. TC is getting shoved aside by the industry and the Harper government and the only thing likely to reverse this is a major accident. My aquaintance recently went to do a ride and found that TC doesn`t even have approach plates for it`s pilots anymore! Cost cutting.
It seems to me that the only alternative to the college is your own union which will only look after it`s own members and regard other pilot`s unions as competitors at best or enemies at worst. Enter the Miltons of the world with their ULCC carriers.
I would bet that other professional organizations like the one for nurses or doctors didn`t start off too gracefully either. But I doubt if those people would want to give up now. Give it some time. It`s only 60 bucks a year and try to imagine the possibilities if EVERY pilot was a member.

[Krimson]

I agree that it would be a great idea to have every pilot backing the college, and we shouldn't give up. But I think I can speak for a lot of pilots when I say we want to see some impact of our donation. A lot of us have loans, mortgages, families, etc. and a relatively poor paycheque which barely gets us by. For me to put any money towards another cause without disposable income, I would want to really believe that it will make a difference. I have been hearing about the college for 4 years now and haven't heard a single change they have accomplished aside from opening a website. Unfortunately it is those who cannot afford it who need it the most.

It's sad to think that any other professional who has spent as much time in his field is making triple of what a pilot does.

Also, a college for the people should be responding to emails at the very least. It is that kind of "give us money, don't hear from us" that is not helping their case.

[teacher]

If the college controlled our licenses we would also have control of their validation by foreign pilots.

Food for thought.

[Rowdy]

Show me some change and I will support the cause.

There should be much more done in terms of protecting and furthering this profession. From training issues all the way across to remuneration.

[teacher]

Show me some change and I will support the cause.

There should be much more done in terms of protecting and furthering this profession. From training issues all the way across to remuneration.

Without pilot support there won't be any change.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Show me some change and I will support the cause.

There should be much more done in terms of protecting and furthering this profession. From training issues all the way across to remuneration.

The CPPC now has just 838 members in good standing. That means that less than 5% of Canadian Professional pilots are members.

Recently, Sunwing applied to the CTA to wet-lease 6 foreign aircraft for the winter, later changed to 5. ALPA opposed the application.

Unifor, the Union Sunwing pilots belong to, was in favor of the foreign wet-leases. Here are their arguments:

UNIFOR
[22] Unifor submits that while it supports the efforts of the Canadian Government to safeguard the employment of Canadian pilots, denying the proposed wet leases will have a significant negative impact on not only Unifor’s members, but Sunwing’s other Canadian employees. Unifor maintains that the new policy should not have retroactive effect as fleet plans are arranged several months in advance of operations. With respect to fleet size, Unifor believes that the 20-percent cap should be a requirement to be maintained during the period when wet-lease services are being operated and not at the time of application. Unifor nsubmits that in order to meet the legislated 45-day filing requirement and because Sunwing increases its fleet by dry leasing aircraft to meet the increased winter flying demand, it is difficult for Sunwing to meet the 20-percent limit at the time it is required to file its application.
[23] Unifor points out that over the past year, Sunwing has been able to increase its pilot membership from 150 to 210 permanent pilots and this has been as a direct result of its reciprocal wet-lease operations during the peak European summer flying season. Unifor maintains that should these proposed wet lease operations not be permitted, it would jeopardize Sunwing’s opportunities to operate in Europe during the busy summer season.
[24] Unifor points out that Sunwing is currently hiring and training an additional 40 seasonal pilots for the upcoming winter season and that its own internal review has concluded that Sunwing does not have the technical and operational capacity to hire any additional Canadian pilots for the upcoming winter season.
[25] Unifor requests that the applications be approved.

We have a Union representing Canadian pilots who argue that wet-leasing foreign aircraft with foreign crews is good for its members. And the CTA concurred, because they approved the wet-leases.

Transport Canada on their end, approved the FLVC of all the foreign non-wet lease pilots, even before these had received work permits from CIC. This is in clear contradiction to CARs.

With industry not defending your rights, with government not defending your rights, with Transport Canada not defending your rights and with pilots unions not defending your rights, who are Canadian pilots counting on to step up to the plate ?

Instead of speaking as one, we are all at each other's throats, and the others exploit this ill-feeling to the max in order to exploit us to the max. We desperately need that one strong voice that will speak for all of us. If its not the CPPC who will it be ?

[DH772]

Reason I didn't join, I sent an email to the contact on their website. I asked in the email, how the college would recognize military pilots as the left the military and joined civilian aviation. Would there be right from the get go, that the college would except the military experience and years of service, to be equal to that of any civilian experience if/when that kind of recognition was required for reasonable employment in this country.

I did not get a reply to my email. Until I have a clear understanding to the answer of the above question, I would not join such an organization, or support it.

I would have supported the college, but their refusal to take a public stance on the foreign pilot issue when it was in the spotlight really disappointed me. I just can't understand why they wouldn't stand up and be heard on something that affects every single pilot in this country. It's a shame because I think the CPP is a good idea.

typical!! The irony is unbelievable!

"I only care if it benefits me"

So you want change, but refuse to join because "your" issues aren't being addressed?? Your statements truly goes to show how little you know about the college and how much time you've spent researching into it. Please go back onto the website and read exactly what the short and long terms goals are.

Pilots whining and complaining there needs to be change! but then refuse to support a change because it "DOESN'T BENEFIT ME" specifically.

....and for the last time, you can't expect or see change unless you have the support to create change! period.

[Rogerdodger2]

Gilles,
The hiring of so many Canadian this past year at SW was in part due you your effects no doubt. However the main reason 60 full time and another 40 seasonal Canadians were hired is due to the contract Unifor negotiated forcing the company to make changes. I don't know how you can argue the union is not defending the rights of Canadian pilots? Do honestly believe that Unifor and it's members are not some of the most invested people in making jobs for Canadians? Now it sounds like your blaming the pilots. Why not start the "deny SW pilots the jump seat" movement again if that's what you think? Anything to trash SW and the people who work there eh? Especially if it's going to help your employer.

[Black Cat]

The college is not interested in setting, regulating, or negotiation a fair wage structure at this point is the answer I was given.

Sorry, but if we don't have a profession there isn't much point in having a college. In a few year they might want to consider a name change to the "daycare for glorified and underpaid bus drivers who live in vans down by the river ".

Seriously though, If the colleges priority is safety why not tackle WACON directly and gain a majority of our group? And not just WACON for airlines, WACON for float drivers, medivac pilots, instructors, Then worry about the questions on an atpl or silly transport Canada licensing regs. BORING!

I haven't been so disappointed in something since I found out Santa wasn't real...

[Krimson]

Seriously though, If the colleges priority is safety why not tackle WACON directly and gain a majority of our group? And not just WACON for airlines, WACON for float drivers, medivac pilots, instructors, Then worry about the questions on an atpl or silly transport Canada licensing regs. BORING!

I know this is what the majority wants, but the college does not have the teeth to get involved in WACON battles. They have to start somewhere, and that is taking over regulations. If they succeed, eventually WACON will improve through regulation. They need to become established as policy makers, then essentially create a shortage by creating new regulations and creating a sharper pilot product. Once this is complete and the door of foreign workers is closed, things will improve. This should all be done from the CPL level forward.

It's a 10+ year plan, but we will have to hit rock bottom before anyone gets on board.